Down wind checks

[robinsm]

How about

 

F - Sufficient fuel

 

E- Engine instruments

 

S- System (flight instruments)

 

A- Airframe (brakes and flaps)

 

P- Passenger (belts etc)

 

A- Airfield (wind and location)

 

Different but very effective (as taught to me by my instructor)

 

Cheers

 

Maynard

 

 

[poteroo]

Checklist Overkill - Why ?

 

This has been the subject of many threads on pprune.org.

 

It's a case of essential checks v's make work checks.

 

A 737 reportedly has only 1 essential pre-takeoff check...... take-off flaps...SET. Yet, I see people on BFR's reading off a 20+ checklist for a simple Cessna.

 

I'm of the persuasion that: if the aircraft does not have the item fitted - then it should not be on the checklist.

 

As for pre-landing checks - they are just as badly overdone. Gear down & locked, cowl flaps open, propellor pitch fine..... blah, blah,blah.........where does it all end ?

 

I often ask people why they pre-landing check that the fuel is ON - when it's either ON or OFF. If it wasn't ON.....why is the engine still running? And the one I really like - mixture RICH.... on a Jabiru ....for goodness sake!

 

I return to what CASA said recently in relation to Reg 103..... simple systems for simple aircraft.

 

Why are we making it more complex than it need be?

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I would suggest that memory checklists should be generic for all aircraft and not customised. That way, you don't miss critical components, like undercarriage.

 

If I go from the Jabiru to the Sabre I want to make sure I don't forget the undercarriage and same if I go from the Jabiru to the Cirrus, I don't want to forget the mixture control.

 

I would suggest a good pilot is one that rattles off the fuller checklist everytime so he misses nothing.

 

What does bug me personally is when people rattle off the check, but don't actually check or point to the item in question. Too many instructors and pilots rattle off this big list but don't really action it by even looking at the instrument(s).

 

'Fuel is on' for your example, is moreso in reference to whether there is adequate fuel for the go-around or on-going flight. In an aircraft with multi tanks like the Chieftain, the POH will specify which tanks must be on for takeoff and or landing, so it's always good to follow the checklists.

 

Another bug of mine is the specificness of some ultralight checklists. They are so customised for the specific aircraft that when the student or pilot changes to something else, they are completely lost.

 

 

[John Brandon]

Checklist Overkill - Why ?

This has been the subject of many threads on pprune.org.

 

It's a case of essential checks v's make work checks.

 

A 737 reportedly has only 1 essential pre-takeoff check...... take-off flaps...SET. Yet, I see people on BFR's reading off a 20+ checklist for a simple Cessna.

 

I'm of the persuasion that: if the aircraft does not have the item fitted - then it should not be on the checklist.

 

As for pre-landing checks - they are just as badly overdone. Gear down & locked, cowl flaps open, propellor pitch fine..... blah, blah,blah.........where does it all end ?

 

I often ask people why they pre-landing check that the fuel is ON - when it's either ON or OFF. If it wasn't ON.....why is the engine still running? And the one I really like - mixture RICH.... on a Jabiru ....for goodness sake!

 

I return to what CASA said recently in relation to Reg 103..... simple systems for simple aircraft.

 

Why are we making it more complex than it need be?

 

happy days,

Many years ago when flying piston engined naval aircraft we had the concept of VITAL CHECKS to be performed prior to take-off and landing. The premise was that full cockpit checks, perhaps 100 items [plus operational items checks] would be performed prior to and post engine start. After the vital take-off checks the routine in-flight cockpit scanning, systems management and piloting would cope with everything until time to perform the half-dozen vital landing checks.

This way the omissions that are likely to kill you are identified and separated from the normal pre-flight and in-flight routines. If you remove the purely naval items plus the constant speed prop checks then you are left with a pretty small list. Here of course I am only referring to the in-cockpit checks, environment and traffic checks come under the heading of piloting. These vital actions were a standard common to most aircraft types.

 

VITAL TAKE-OFF CHECKS: SEA FURY, FIREFLY, SEA HORNET

 

Wings: spread and locked

 

Trim: all neutral [but full left rudder for Sea Fury]

 

Pitch: fully fine

 

Fuel: on main tank, contents, booster pump on

 

Flaps: Sea Fury: up [airfield], take-off [free carrier], max lift [catapult carrier]

 

Firefly: take-off position [all locations]

 

Sea Hornet: max lift position [all locations]

 

Tail wheel: locked

 

VITAL LANDING CHECKS: SEA FURY, FIREFLY, SEA HORNET

 

Brakes: off, pressures OK

 

Undercarriage: down and locked [3 greens]

 

Pitch: set approach rpm

 

Fuel: main tank, contents, booster pump on

 

Flaps: landing position

 

Hook: down for carrier

 

Tail wheel: unlocked [carrier], locked [airfield]

 

John Brandon

 

 

[Admin]

How long have you been out of the game for now Chris and I bet you can still recite the checklist in your sleep

 

 

[Ben Longden]

A bloody good mate of mine, John Frew (Nanchang and Mustang 2) always used the same downwind checks regardless of what plane he was in.

 

His classic line when flying the Bushby Mustang 2 with fixed gear was "Undercarriage; down and welded".

 

His thought was that there are two types of pilot who have landed a retract with gear up, making a mess of the runway.. "there are those who have made a wheels up landing, and those about to.."

 

Ben

 

 

[poteroo]

Must say I'm surprised that many of you want to do, or teach, checks on items which don't exist. Is it in our nature to overly complicate matters, or have we become so cautious, (due liability issues), that we are trying to cover every possibility?

 

happy days,

 

 

[facthunter]

Checks.

 

Beware of overcomplication. The checks have to be realistic, simple and relate to the situation you are in. I've seen plenty of people recite a check list word perfectly,& fail to notice that the switch / control, is in the wrong position to that which is required. Not impressed. Complex aircraft have inbuilt checklists that nobody would attempt to remember, but the philosophy of it all was that the list did not prompt the action, it would confirm that the action was done. This might be a point to note, or way to look at it. ie. In a particular phase of flight,( and I include the whole regime from pre-flight to shut-down), certain actions should be performed, logically ,to set up the aircraft & manage the flight. AFTER they are done, the list is used as a CHECK or confirmation, to eliminate any uncertainty, which might require repetition of the action unnecessarily. Personally, with some of these "nemonics",some of them are so abstract that having gone to the effort of remembering them, I'm flat-out working out what they are supposed to mean, let alone the relevance . N.....

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Agreed.

 

There is no point in having irrelevant items in the check, but so long as it covers whats required in the manual... such as wheels to land on, motion lotion in the appropriate tank/s to keep the pilot cooling device running, flaps if fitted and the like are covered.

 

Each make of plane is different, and therefore has a differing requirement.

 

In addition to mentally rattling off each item and physically checking switches as I go, I have the habit of referring to a bit of paper on my knee to make sure things are not missed.

 

Ben

 

 

[Mazda]

I'm a GA pilot and use the following.

 

BUMFISH for a downwind check. Note that it has to be adapted slightly to each type with common sense. "Fuel" could be on and sufficient, through to fuel pump on, fullest tank selected and quantity sufficient. "Instruments" includes engine and flight instruments.

 

Then I have a couple of pre-landing checks. Initially I was taught Mixture, Pitch, Gear (which has still stuck because I started with this check) but the more common one is PUF (Pitch, Undercarriage, flaps). You can make it PUFC if you are using carby heat in the circuit.

 

After landing and on taxiway I do FROST. Flaps Identified and raised, fuel pump off. Radios (frequency, call if required), Oil temps and pressures, switches (turn everything off that is not required - landing light, strobes, navaids) and SARTIME (cancel if required), Transponder to standby (and reset code to 1200/2000).

 

(By the way, BUMFISH is also a great pre emergency landing checklist, just think in terms of shutting down though - so undercarriage up or down as required, Mixture is idle cut off, fuel off, instruments could be ELT, all switches off, hatches cracked, harness secure etc).

 

 

[Guest Teenie2]

I must say I don't use checklists at all. BRAKES - I have no parking brake .MIXTURE- Have no mix adjustment .FUEL QAN --That gets looked at every minute or so. FLAPS- Have none .PITCH-- fixed pitch prop. TEMPS,PRESS-- again they get looked at 1 minute scans .FUEL COCK-- 5 seconds after thats turned off engine is off .MAG--if this is off engine is to .SEAT BELT-- From start to shutdown never removed.CARBY HEAT-- always on.

 

Checklists are a waste of time in my Teenie.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

This is the beauty of trikes . . . downwind checks consist of checking that you have glide distance to the runway but far enough away to turn 180degrees to land if your motor stops . . . and checking that your nosewheel is straight for the landing.

 

So simple, like the aircraft itself.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[Guest The Bushman]

My Down Wind checks are very simple

 

Carby heat before reducing power

 

Undercarrage still there

 

Flaps Did.t put them on when built aircraft

 

Fuel pump gracity fed

 

Brakes no hand brake

 

Harness did,t take it off

 

Wind direction Good

 

Traffic non

 

Carby heat off on short final

 

Speed Watch

 

Always in glide range ?

 

Kiss Ground

 

James

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

This is the beauty of trikes . . . downwind checks consist of checking that you have glide distance to the runway but far enough away to turn 180degrees to land if your motor stops . . . and checking that your nosewheel is straight for the landing.So simple, like the aircraft itself.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

Hmmm - trikes are relatively simple but I think there should be a bit more than that. What about brakes off, sufficient fuel, hand throttle closed, windsock, other traffic for example ?

 

 

[Guest Teenie2]

If you need a checklist for --- sufficient fuel,windsock,and other traffic, I would suggest you move away from aviation.

 

 

[crazy diamond]

Teenie 2, I don't know you from a bar of soap but if you DON'T use some simple checks like that I would prefer people like YOU move away from aviation. Doesn't matter whether it's a Trike, Thruster, Gulfstream or a B777 I bet SOMEONE does some simple checks like that on board. I know when flying fixed U/C aircraft I still use things like "Undercarriage down check three greens", should I move away from aviation? It is attitudes like yours that are dangerous, not people who do check things like sufficient fuel, windsock & traffic, how many people do you know have run out of gas on final or landed on the wrong runway by not double or triple checking the sock or how many people have had near misses with other aircraft in the circuit because of a lack of orientation? I know of a number of cases in which aircraft have had collisions on final or turning final due to not being aware of your surrounds outside the piano keys.

 

 

[Admin]

WARNING - Careful Guys!!!

 

I will let these posts stay BUT with the following comments:

 

Teenie2 - you say you don't do checks but in fact you do - as you say every minute or so and no doubt you do look at the windsock - seems you do do your checks but perhaps not all at once. What is concerning is that say a new student reads your post and thinks "Oh, I am always checking my instruments so that means I don't have to do any down wind checks" - this is sending the wrong message - many different people read what you have written here.

 

Crazy Diamond - irrespective of whether I agree with what you have said or not we can't single a person out with a direct attack here in the forums - perhaps it is the way it is written and that is all - perhaps it really got you going which is fair enough - BUT let us not come out in front of everyone and say things like this, the PM system can be used for that and the other person can then go back and edit their post.

 

Remember, we are all in this great sport together, helping each other and not against each other - PLEASE!

 

 

[crazy diamond]

Ian that is my point, it sends the wrong message, plain and simple. Despite this being a hobby/sport and great fun there should be no compromise on safety.

 

 

[Guest Teenie2]

A forum member mentioned a checklist for "fuel,windsock,and other traffic" should you not always be scanning outside for traffic not needing a checklist to remind you to do so. Fuel ,I'm constantly scanning the gauges , and you should to .If a aviator cannot do these things without checklists I would say there is a major problem .If someone needs a checklist to remind themselves to do these very basic functions what happens when the S$$t hits the fan. And yes crazy diamond you have to be situationally aware of not only the airspace around you but the A/C as well,not have your head down looking at checklists.

 

And please crazy diamond look at my earlier post I only mentioned fuel ,other traffic and windsock.I also mentioned checklists are a waste of time in my Teenie I was not saying "DO NOT USE CHECKLIST". For complex A/C I do use checklists (Pre start checks on a 747 are 3 pages long, not a hope I could remember all that)

 

But then again maybe after more than 25 years working in aviation Ive become blase.

 

Have fun.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

My earlier post was made in the context of trikes which I suspect might not have been recognised in some of the replies. "FAWNT" also includes "Nose wheel straight" and "Hand Throttle Closed" which are obviously not relevent in most 3-axis aircraft.

 

FUEL - many trikes have relatively small fuel tanks, most don't have fuel gauges & even less have ones which are accurate at low fuel levels. You physically have to lean out & look backwards to visually check the level. Hence the check is a reminder to do this and confirm that there is sufficient fuel (including for a go-around if necessary).

 

AROUND - trikes tend to do relatively tight circuits to keep in glide distance of the runway and to match the time in circuit to other traffic. Hence the "All clear" as a reminder to check especially for traffic on long finals for example (and also includes runway obstructions).

 

WIND - as low momentum, high drag aircraft, trikes are affected more by wind than a lot of other types and, by design, only have 2-axis control. Wind factors play a bigger part in planning the landing hence the reminder to double-check the windsock.

 

Checking these 3 items on downwind should not and DOES NOT imply that they only have to be checked then.

 

Regarding the comment on having "your head down looking at checklists" I quite agree - "FAWNT" is simple enough to remember as written down checklists (or anything else loose) don't last to long in the open cockpit envirnoment of a trike !

 

Assuming I don't "move away from aviation" come up to YCAB sometime and have a go in a trike if you haven't previously flown one.

 

Hope that clarifies things

 

John

 

 

[Admin]

Ian that is my point, it sends the wrong message, plain and simple. Despite this being a hobby/sport and great fun there should be no compromise on safety.

Yes Mate!!! - but there is a way to say it :big_grin:

 

 

[Admin]

Teenie2 - May I will tell you 2 stories:

 

1. A highly experienced pilot who always wears his seatbelt from start to finish and never takes it off one time realised on his downwind checks that he hadn't put his seatbelt on properly in the first place - he got distracted when he was getting into his plane - as I said he picked it up on his downwind check although it was to late but at least he knew about it then and could rectify it - imagine if he hadn't picked it up and something happened on his landing where he needed his seatbelt - it can happen at any time especially when we least expect it - nevertheless this is the damage that happened:

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5588

 

2. I was flying and this had never happened to me before but the door latch had due to the in flight vibrations slowly moved forward and the door opened in flight - this was purely a maintenance thing that hadn't been noticed but suddenly happened. Imagine if the thump of landing had have caused the door to suddenly fling open distracting me and could have caused a big problem. Downwind checks would tell me that the door latch had moved in time for me to secure it properly before landing. I know the Teenie doesn't have doors but say your visor had come loose after many hours in flight and broke off just as you hit the runway - hmmm, a disaster. Sure we have downwind checks of "doors secure" but is it possible that maybe your downwind checks would see that the visor is secure instead of doors - just a thought! The heater cable in my CT slowly goes back into the panel afterawhile in flight from the vibrations (have to tighten that up) but that is another example - imagine if that was say your carby heat - after many hours of flying the carby heat turned itself off through wear and tear - downwind checks would see that, would it not?

 

I personally believe that whilst we are always checking everything as we fly and I don't think there are that many people reading off a checklist as they do it from memory but a paused moment on downwind to collect your thoughts, check everything, I mean everything before you undertake the task of landing where as Murphy says "if it is going to go wrong it will" especially landing, is a good thing to have - irrespective of what kind of aircraft you may fly!

 

 

[Guest Teenie2]

Assuming I don't "move away from aviation" come up to YCAB sometime and have a go in a trike if you haven't previously flown one.

Just watch out, I might take you up on that offer one day. Your damm lucky having CAB ,probably the best sports/rec field in Aus.

 

Have Fun.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I was test flying an aircraft last year. It was the first flight ever for this brand new and recently completed aircraft. The owner really wanted to be on board for the first flight, so I decided to meet him half way as they say. We taxiied out, I requested a high speed taxi off the tower and they gave clearance. I zoomed along, got about 1 foot in the air, landed and came back to the tower and dropped off the owner / passenger and said, 'there you go, you were onboard for the first flight.' He got out and shut the door.

 

I taxiied out for the REAL test flight and proceeded to take off. As I had lifted off and was crossing the upwind threshold of Moorabbin's 17R at around 350 feet, the passenger door came open. I'd never had a door open on this type of aircraft before. I also had problems with the ailerons or flaps as they were misaligned and required constant input to one side. I managed to lean across and get the door closed, however it was tricky and a little concerning, compounded by the fact that this was the aircraft's first flight and I was being very cautious. The owner was watching and was becoming concerned that I was off course and not climbing for around 30 seconds.

 

Nett result - I didn't check 'hatches' as any good pilot would before takeoff and I didn't use a checklist because there wasn't one. I assumed that the owner AND builder of the aircraft would have known to shut his door properly. I assumed wrong.

 

Checklist are of vital importance, especially when chainging aircraft types and are a critical part of the learning process for student pilots. I strongly advise using them at all times no matter what. I went for a ride recently with a 5,000+ hour pilot and he pulled out the checklist in a Jabiru. I was most impressed with his attention to detail. When I asked him about it's use given his experience, he commented how important it was when changing aircraft to have all necessary information available, such as checklists and speed references.

 

Ian - seatbelts often come undone in flight too. I've had many passengers who have inadvertantly unclipped their belt without realising and on downwind when I've physically pulled on their harness I've realised.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Just watch out, I might take you up on that offer one day. Your damm lucky having CAB ,probably the best sports/rec field in Aus.Have Fun.

It would be a pleasure !

 

Yes CAB is a great airfield and arguably has most diverse range of recreational flying based there.

 

Cheers

 

John