Guest drizzt1978 Posted March 15, 2009 Posted March 15, 2009 I noticed the other day that an all white Jabiru was quite difficult to spot when He was in the circuit with me. BUT when there was a grey chopper coming in I could see it easy. Mind you the chopper was a we bit (ok heaps!!) bigger than the Jab. So does anybody think there is a better colour than white!!
Mazda Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 I think white is the worst colour! For me, yellow, red and (oddly enough) black aircraft seem easier to see. Where I fly there are a bunch of white gliders and one red one. I can always spot the red one easily, the white ones are not so easy. Most people seem to spot my yellow aircraft before seeing white aircraft in the circuit, especially when ATC says, "follow the yellow ..."
Guest drizzt1978 Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Yeah i think you are right. White Aircraft from behind just blends in!! Side on his hard enough!
gofastclint Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 I always seem to notice an add with a bright red Foxbat in it. I think it looks great in this colour too.
Guest High Plains Drifter Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 seem to notice an add with a bright red Foxbat in it. I sense a bright red Foxbat in your future aircraft stable...
gofastclint Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 I sense a bright red Foxbat in your future aircraft stable... All metal construction, powered by the reliable 912, great short field capabilities as seen on youtube and great visibility. Plus that great red colour. Yeah, I wouldn't say no.
gofastclint Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 but there will be a drifter in the garage well befor something like that.
mAgNeToDrOp Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 white may be more difficult to see but I don't think these jabs and other plasticfantastics have any other choice since the white reflects the heat the most, and if am not mistaken can only have a certain percentage of the surface covered with paint,decals etc.. to avoid overheating the airframe and softening..correct me if I am wrong...
dlps73 Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 I chose white for its fade resistant properties but I did stick strobes on the wing tips so we could be seen...... Cheers.......Doug
Guest ozzie Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 searching a blue sky trying to find a white cessna on jumprun at 10,000ft can be a real pain. the easy ones to see were always had dark coloured wing tips and tail. like safety orange or red. ozzie
Guest drizzt1978 Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Maybe some Bright red flames instead of Decals!! is the way to go, on the wing tips and tail!!
gofastclint Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 white may be more difficult to see but I don't think these jabs and other plasticfantastics have any other choice since the white reflects the heat the most, and if am not mistaken can only have a certain percentage of the surface covered with paint,decals etc.. to avoid overheating the airframe and softening..correct me if I am wrong... I have seen a mirror chrome film that comes in large sheets, and is very light weight. it would be good to put on the top side of a plastic fantastic wing. I imagine it would have a much better heat properties. It would have to be a high wing as looking out at a mirror on a low wing would send you blind.
jcamp Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 I have seen a mirror chrome film ........... I imagine it would have a much better heat properties Not so - worse. Reason has to do with emissivity/adsorbtion coefficients at different wavelengths but basically while a similar amount of heat is aborbed MUCH less is radiated. Just compare the temperature of polished aluminium bare and white painted in sunlight on a summer day.
gofastclint Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Not so - worse. Reason has to do with emissivity/adsorbtion coefficients at different wavelengths but basically while a similar amount of heat is aborbed MUCH less is radiated. Just compare the temperature of polished aluminium bare and white painted in sunlight on a summer day. Cheers for the info, that totally makes sense, like a hot bumper on an older model car.
Guest ROM Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 It is illegal to put any colours around or on top of the fuselage and wings of the composite gliders because of the heat absorption from the solar radiation so white it is and white it remains. Dark colours on the top surfaces can lead to a small loss of strength in the composite after baking for some time in very hot sunny conditions. The glider composites are generally quite superior to the types of composites used in most LSA aircraft in most cases and can take a lot of high temperature baking. However, Prudence is the watchword here! The Luftwaffe held a number of trials of aircraft paint schemes during WW2 but decided it made no difference while airborne as did the Americans who just left their aircraft bare finished in the end as it saved weight and production time and made no difference to air to air or ground to air visibility. On ground visibility of aircraft was quite enhanced by camouflage but that is different situation to the types of high visibility that the average pilot wishes to achieve and is seeking.
Guest drizzt1978 Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Well, looks like strobes are the only way to go then...
jcamp Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Need a lot more grunt in the strobes to be much use in daylight, orders of magnitude. Which raises the problem of powering them with our alternators.
slartibartfast Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I've got strobes on my already highly visible Jabiru powered Cheetah, and they work great! They were originally on a Thruster owned by a guy called Jesus Christ. I kid you not.
sain Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 You can use high brightness LEDs as strobes - I believe there are a number of these units available - maybe Ian can do you a deal. Jim Wier wrote a couple of articles for kitplanes (aero'lectrics column) on LED powered Nav lights. (Aug-Oct 2008). If your inclined to "roll your own" you might find them helpful. LED lighting is much lower powered than conventional lighting, and should be lower maintenance in the long run too. Personally I've found standard strobes show up pretty well in daylight, and certainly help when trying to locate another plane visually.
Guest drizzt1978 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I've got strobes on my already highly visible Jabiru powered Cheetah, and they work great! They were originally on a Thruster owned by a guy called Jesus Christ. I kid you not. Sure it wasn"t Hey Zus ;);););)
Guest pelorus32 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 US military did a big study on visibility of aircraft in full daylight, low vis daylight, dusk and night. They showed that strobes only helped in very low light and darkness. Strobes have to be unrealistically powerful to make any difference in daylight was their view. Regards Mike
Gibbo Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 My brothers Piper was painted safety Orange for entire time he was working in PNG, flying himself between mine sites in highlands.. Something about being able to spot it on the jungle floor. :) Gibbo
Guest ROM Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Maybe in the end we will all have to go to a system very similar to the flight alarm system , ie; Flarm, that is now mandatory in most gliding competitions in Australia and rapidly becoming so around the world. It is an audio, visual alarm system that indicates the distance and direction of another similarly equipped flight alarm aircraft by using audio initially and then a simple layout of LEDS as direction pointers. Prices are around the $1200 AUD. Swiss version info here ; Flarm - Product Aussie version here; Swift Avionics - Instruments for Sailplanes, Ultralights and Hang Gliding | Flarm, OzFlarm, Altair And here; Swift Avionics > MiniOz Flarm Engine Originally Swiss designed All versions of the Flarm are nationally compatible. I think that internationally that is also the case. Note that I did NOT say that aircraft should use the Flarm as is but the same principle and same compatible technology could be developed for the Ultra Light movement. As with any close vicinity aircraft warning technology there are plusses and minuses. The Flarm has worked and is working as a proven close vicinity aircraft warning system. Biggest drawback for the moment is that it only works with similarly equipped aircraft. It does cost but only the price of a radio or similar equipment so not the usual outrageous aviation prices. Very small and light and easily installed. As strobes are of only a very limited benefit and then only in dull conditions, the Flarm operates at the same level in all conditions and the Flarm will cost no more than a multi strobe system.
Guest Decca Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Ever noticed how effective landing lights are in broad daylight? They are visible on long final a while before you can see the aircraft. For years commercial airlines have used landing lights below 10,000ft for birdstike protection. It does work but unfortunately not all the time. No wonder when the big jets are still doing 240kph+ on short final. I favour 12v high wattage quartz halogens (the type used for ceiling downlights, powered by 240vac through a transformer). Cost effective, long lasting, & very visible. Ian Baker's Gazelle has one on the r/h wing tip, uses a turn indicator flash can to cycle it on & off. An instructor in another a/c commented on how effectively visible it was, but perhaps you need a few forward-facing ones for higher visibility. Any thoughts? Regards, Decca.
Guest ROM Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 The local kit builders here in Horsham have been installing one of these Quartz Halogen lights in their engine cowlings over the last 3 years for the very purpose you have commented on Decca. Excellent and visible ID of the aircraft on final from on the ground which is particularly important when you also have gliders operating off the same strip and people wandering around on runways getting gliders organised or for when another aircraft is ready to taxi onto the active runway. The high intensity 5 unit LED light is now taking the quartz Halogen's place. The high intensity 7 unit LED uses too much power for the Jab alternator to run for any length of time. Still does not overcome the problem of an all round, all encompassing, totally reliable quick locator system for distant aircraft.
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