Stopping at Runway Holding Position Markings

[Captain]

I have read the AIP from cover to cover and can't quickly find an answer to the following, so lets see what forum members think.

 

You are on a designated sealed taxiway, taxiing for the sealed duty runway.

 

The light breeze is clearly down the duty runway, aircraft are using that runway and you are not aware of anyone using the cross strip during your taxi ..... but you are aware that it does get used at times by students practicing cross-wind landings.

 

The sealed taxiway crosses the grass cross-strip.

 

There are runway holding position markings on the taxiway either side of the cross strip.

 

Is it compulsory to stop at those holding position markings on the taxiway each time you approach the cross strip?

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

I'll be very interested in the answer to this. I think the answer is this:

 

Assuming that you are operating at a CTAF - not a controlled airport - I think that your obligation is not to encroach on a runway that someone else is using. In other words you have an obligation to ensure that the runway and its approaches are clear and that it's safe to cross the runway before you pass the holding point marks. Those marks ensure that if you do have to stop you stop at a distance that is sufficient to keep you clear of the runway.

 

Now that's my view and it may be so much rubbish...so let's hear the real answer.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[turboplanner]

I believe it dovetailed in with the procedure where you stop, request clearance to cross and the tower controller ensures clearance and calls you to cross.

 

So at an uncontrolled field you stop, ensure that runway is clear then cross.

 

HOWEVER, I suspect this has gone missing as a result of updates on updates.

 

I've been waiting for an answer on the correctness of the current VFG information on clearance from cloud since before Christmas - you wouldn't think that was too hard, but...

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Can you advise what you are waiting for with respect to clearance from cloud?

 

Common sense should prevail regarding crossing runways. Personally I would stop, look, then make a call to say I'm crossing it. If I hit an aircraft doing circuits that doesn't have a radio, then I would be 100% liable for that.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Can you advise what you are waiting for with respect to clearance from cloud?Common sense should prevail regarding crossing runways. Personally I would stop, look, then make a call to say I'm crossing it. If I hit an aircraft doing circuits that doesn't have a radio, then I would be 100% liable for that.

(a)

 

One current publication specifies a minimum horizontal distance from cloud, another a minium vertical distance from cloud.

 

(b)

 

I'm sure there was a regulation, having a look for it.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Can you elaborate further, as there are requirements for both vertical and horizontal distances from cloud? Are you just after the exact figures?

 

 

[GraemeK]

My reading of the need for runway clearances is:

 

• at a non-towered aerodrome - lookout and ensure it's clear before crossing, make radio call to warn others you're about to cross.
   
  

 

 

 

 

 

• at a towered aerodrome - clearance always required (AIP ENR 1.1 para 4.3.8)
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

 

• at a GAAP aerodrome - clearance required to cross active runway only (AIP ENR 1.1 para 27.1.1) - presume active runway(s) as nominated in ATIS - not sure???
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[GraemeK]

I'm sure there was a regulation, having a look for it.

AIP ENR 1.2 is the one .....

 

 

[turboplanner]

BrentC

 

I believe there is a conflict, subject was raised last year with some confusing results, so I'd like to get it right before raising the subject again, particularly in relation to one CASA approved Publication.

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

My take on this is with Pelorous and TurboPlanner.

 

 

Think less of blind regulation and more on practicality!

 

 

If you are at a tower controlled airfield then you must request permission to cross any runway. The taxiway markers show you where you must stop so you are legally clear of the runway and not infringing on the the landing and/or take off rights of any user of that runway.

 

 

If you are non controlled then it is see and be seen. If you see somebody in the process of landing or taking off then the holding line again tells you where to stop so you are leaving the runway legally clear for others.

 

 

That is all basic enough and I do not give a stuff about CASA or regulation really – Airmanship is based on doing sensible things at the appropriate time – providing you have a handle on what you are doing.

 

 

However, this enables me to use this thread as a soapbox for one of my favourite hobby horses that really does tick me off!!!!

 

 

What drives me to fury on both controlled and uncontrolled airfields are the idiots (mainly but not exclusively GA) who insist on taxiing out onto the end of the runway and then stopping, doing their checks, picking their nose, consulting the maps, having a swift tot of something or another, or fondling the girlfriend!

 

 

This does sometimes seem to take an inordinate length of time during which they have their backs to (and are completely blind to) any aircraft that is now on approach and has right of way – which they then blindly commence a take-off under!.

 

 

This is HIGHLY BLOODY DANGEROUS!!!!. Do your checks or whatever else you want to do OFF THE RUNWAY where you can see at least the base leg and approach. When complete then commit to take-off, taxi onto the runway, check you are rolling straight and then immediately take off without stopping!

 

 

Aye

 

 

Tony.

 

 

[Guest Mad Dave]

Tony,

 

Could not agree more, the runway is not for parking on!! I had a ripper a few weeks ago, a bloke (with no radio apparently) in a camoflague painted plane sitting on the end of a grass runway, I only actually saw him there well into finals.

 

 

[Thx1137]

My take so far, I am still studying...

 

I believe that at a CTAF it is not _compulsory_ to stop. See and be seen and all that. At my CTAF, often aircraft will keep rolling while scanning then stop at the line when another aircraft is spotted. The CASA guys at the last safety seminar I went to _strongly recommended_ stopping all the time but I didn't get the idea that it was a regulation.

 

Controlled airports are a little different I think. We _must_ stop before crosing any active runway (unless given specific approval to cross while taxiing) but depending on the airport (check notams, atis, etc), usualy can cross inactive ones.

 

Even in controlled airports we should still apply some caution though so we should still be scanning and be prepared to stop before inactive runways, even when given clearance.

 

 

[turboplanner]

AIP ENR 1.2 is the one .....

Graeme, can you post the wording for us?

 

 

[GraemeK]

It's in several tables (they do like to make things seem complicated) - here's the URL:

 

AIP GEN 1.2.

 

While there are tables for each airspace, the guts of it is the same - 1500m horizontally, 1000ft vertically (just love how we mix units!). In GAAP, clear of cloud. In Class G at greater of 3000ft or 1000ft AGL, then clear of cloud and in sight of ground.

 

Cheers

 

 

[BigPete]

I'm with you Tony. Had an experience not long after getting my certificate. Taxied to the run up point, did all my checks and gave an entering runway call (I had heard no radio broadcasts at all except for my earlier taxi call) and started for the threshold looking down the runway - no one coming looking back (final approach) no one coming - yes there is - someone on late final.

 

So I stopped and said (on the radio) something like - "Jabiru xxxx holding short of runway 35 for aircraft on late final". Must have a bad radio or is on wrong frequency - oh well - my turn now as he's nearly off.

 

Gave another entering call and away I went - as I picked up speed I heard the bastard (clear as a bell) give a clear all runways call!!!!!!

 

Never heard a 10 mile innbound call, joining circuit or in circuit calls. :yuk::yuk:

 

Now I'm older and wiser and expect anything - including bad airmanship.

 

That way I'm not disappointed when it happens :big_grin::big_grin::big_grin:

 

regards

 

:big_grin::big_grin:

 

 

[turboplanner]

GraemeK, you've picked up on BrentC's curiosity relating to another matter - not going to open the can here until I get an official answer about the conflict in documents - this thread's about crossing runways

 

 

[GraemeK]

Oops, apologies for the thread drift .

 

 

[Gibbo]

Would not have a clue as the the actual legal requirements but Eugene Reid would most likely fail someone on a flight test if they did not actually come to a complete stop, make the required radio call and a phyiscal (strained!) check before entering / crossing any runway for any purpose.

 

Brett at lilydale would most likely give a sharp whack on the knuckles if you didn't make a crossing 36L for 36R call during a lesson.

 

Both these airstrips are CTAF® but the same would have to apply to a CTAF as you are still required to make all the same calls if you have a radio fitted.

 

Common sense says look both ways before you cross the road.

 

Gibbo

 

 

[GraemeK]

Brett at lilydale would most likely give a sharp whack on the knuckles if you didn't make a crossing 36L for 36R call during a lesson.

Yeah - best to avoid the sharp whack and make the call, even though technically you're crossing before the threshold of 36R. It's also a reminder to make you have a good look for someone on finals.

 

Not a problem while 36L is out of action ....

 

 

[poteroo]

Treat a holding point line exactly as you would if it was a STOP sign - regardless of whether you are at a busy CTAF ® or Blackstump. If there is no line - assume that there should be one - and hold/look/broadcast/enter when satisfied no conflict.

 

happy days,

 

 

[octave]

I was taught to check the runway whilst on the move, in fact making somewhat of zig zag turn in order to see any aircraft on final. The angle at which the runways intersect at my airfield (and the Gazelles high wing) means that when you can see one end of the runway you can't see the other end. Coming to a stop would require turning to the right, stopping, moving off and turning left, stopping and then making a call.

 

I recall - just before my first solo, approaching the runway intersection, I turned to the right to look for any aircraft on final, I swung around to the left to check the other end of the runway only to see a 172 on final to land downwind and no radio calls! I think the lesson here is to do what ever you have to do to make sure you get a clear view of both ends of the runway and of course a call before entering.

 

 

[Tomo]

what ever you have to do to make sure you get a clear view of both ends of the runway and of course a call before entering.

Please Do this.....!

 

Had a Jab say his taxi call, and then pretty much said his rolling call as he was approaching the runway, and obviously didn't look to see if anyone was on finals, because I was! I had to actually put power on, and fly over top of him, while making a radio call to make sure he wasn't going to go further....! when he saw us he stopped to a grinding halt, and then told me I hadn't made any calls....Sorry mate, fact was I had..........

 

So the lesson I learnt from this bit of excitement was... always look to see if aircraft are on finals before entering the runway (not just a glance, LOOK) and make your entering runway call, preferably just before you actually enter.....

 

It would have been a lot worse off if I was flying an aircraft with a engine out the front and can't see down there...

 

Have fun, and fly safe.....:thumb_up:

 

 

[turboplanner]

You're right Tomo. It's hard to believe people don't look up the final path - it's not really a big area of vision, only takes a second.

 

 

[youngmic]

Look the other way too, some of us like to land down wind.

 

No requirement to stop at the taxiway/rwy line unless conflict exists.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Youngmic

 

That's a point, but a lot of ac will turn upwind for a clear view of incoming upwind traffic, so the risk factor increases.

 

the risk factor on landing gear increases exponentially, and anything with a 60 kts+ approach and sub standard brakes will find find the end fence quite often.

 

Other than an emergency, or training for a circuit engine failure, when there will be radio traffic, is there a reason for the downwind landings?