Stopping at Runway Holding Position Markings

[Guest TOSGcentral]

While Captain's questions are interesting - the bottom line here is that he did exercise good airmanship (no matter who was actually right or wrong) and contained the situation into one where there could not be conflict.

 

Ultimately what you want is safety and he ensured it!

 

 

[facthunter]

Fuel Saving.

 

A down-wind landing can be judged to come in on idle power, if you wish.BUT, This is considered NOT ON for Jet engines as they take longer to "spool up" from the flight idle setting. On departure it is not extra climb fuel, as if you think of what happens it is a climb to cruise height, whatever direction you are going, you will get there (the height) in the same time. You end up lengthening the track, the extra distance would be at cruise rate.

 

While the aircraft may be certified to land and take-off with certain downwind components, a certified figure and a good operating technique should not be confused. Brake temps and wear could easily tip the scales the other way. The energy that has to be dissipated is the square of 2 times the wind component effectively. eg if the airspeed over the fence is 110 Kts, the groundspeed with a 12 Kt head wind will be 98 Kts. With a tailwind it will be 122Kts.This calculates out to a kinetic energy increase of 155 percent. All this is bye the bye, the main saving is time, and the ability to keep to schedule. The downside is that the operation is less safe as downwind landings and take-offs reduce safety margins in accelerate stop and climb gradient, as well as abusing the brakes.( which might not have cooled sufficiently at the time of the subsequent take-off to be fully effective in stopping the aircraft in the event of a rejected take-off.. The most important thing however no matter how you might want to see it as being helpfull by going along with it and getting out of the way, there is disruption to the traffic established in the circuit, who are in essence doing the RIGHT thing. Nev.

 

 

[Captain]

not uncommon sadly, the rex aircraft departed with a tail wind, runway 27, when there were 2 other aircraft on base and final for runway 09.... when asked what he was doing the rex crew replied, its ok the aircraft is rated to take off and land with a tail wind!what a load of bullXXXXe.

Great shot there UL. I bet they claim that it was "backtracking" if it ever gets shown to the company. (It was backtracking for a little while, I guess, .... at 80 - 100 knots).

 

Ahlocks asked a SAAB aircraft here recently what their downwind limits were and they replied "10 knots" ...... so we would all be wise to expect that (but I am certain that I have seen them come in downwind at a bit more than that in the past).

 

At least we are a CTAF ® so if all aircraft are on the right frequency and all radios are working, separation is relatively easy to arrange .... as long as we act like one of Turbo's pigeons.

 

But downwind departures and landings of RPT aircraft sure must be a worry in a normal CTAF, where there is no guarantee that everyone has a radio, and pilots have into-wind expectations.

 

I almost drove over to the CASA AvSafety Seminar in Griffith last night to raise the issue, but thought I would probably get fobbed off without a detailed discussion, and that wasn't worth 4 hours dodging roos.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Mazda]

I haven't read through all the pages here so forgive me if I'm doubling up, but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

 

Commercial aircraft are subject to commercial pressures, plus hanging around in the circuit is where they are more likely to hit something slower, so I have no problem with straight in approaches, including landing with an acceptable downwind. They are out of your way in next to no time. Remember these aircraft do have an acceptable downwind, and remember too that the airlines have a stack of "exemptions" from the rules, so you can quote them all here until you are blue in the face but it may not necessarily apply to a particular airline. I'm not sure which exemptions apply to which airlines.

 

The passengers probably don't get circuit entries anyway. The runway is over there, why don't we just fly to it and land?

 

I find most (Ok, not all) of the airline pilots to be very courteous, they were in GA probably not so long ago!

 

Someone said there are different procedures for CTAFs and CTAF Rs. Not true, it isn't like the old MTAF/MBZ days. A CTAF is a CTAF, whether radio is required or not. You can never, ever, ever assume that all traffic will have a working radio on the right frequency. How do you even know if your own radio is working if there is no AFRU unit, someone in the tower, or someone else on the airport to talk to? The truth is, you don't! It is so easy to have the wrong frequency selected, the wrong radio, and radios do fail (even new radios).

 

You can never absolutely rely on a pilot who says they are in a particular place, to actually be in that place. How many have heard pilots saying they are to the south when they are to the north? Or saying they are joining for runway 36 when they are actually joining for 18?

 

So do listen out of course, but keep alert. Even when on approach, or on taxi, try to get a feel for aircraft that are at the field. Runway in use (but be cautious), position in the circuit and so on.

 

Cross strips? Be very careful. Do look both ways, even if someone has called for a particular runway. Be very aware also if you are flying a high wing because sometimes you can't see final very well at all. I've been on the receiving end of that too. I remember being happily established on final, strobes on, landing light on, all radio calls made, when a C152 pilot announced he was entering and lining up on my runway. He hadn't seen me.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mazda. if you search through this thread and find the post's by turboplanner and give them a read, you'll be surprised.. Turbo contacted casa about this issue and the results from that meeting are posted.. There are NO exemptions for ANY aircraft to go contrary to cct direction already established at the airfield by other operating acft..

 

 

[GraemeK]

..... you are not aware of anyone using the cross strip during your taxi ..... but you are aware that it does get used at times by students practicing cross-wind landings ....Is it compulsory to stop at those holding position markings on the taxiway each time you approach the cross strip?

The rules on crossing runways at GAAP airports just changed - previously you needed clearance to cross the active runway, now it's all runways.

 

C0033/09

 

GENERAL AVIATION AERODROME PROCEDURES - (GAAP) CONTROL ZONES

 

A PILOT IN COMMAND MUST REQ AND OBTAIN ATC CLEARANCE BEFORE ENTERING,

 

CROSSING OR TAXIING ALONG ANY RWY WHILE AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES ARE IN

 

OPERATION

 

REFERENCE AIP BOOK A/L 59 EFFECTIVE 4 JUNE 09

 

 

 

AMD AIP ENR 1.1-50 PARA 27.1.1 B. TO READ:

 

B. TAXIING ACROSS OR ALONG ANY RUNWAY

 

FROM 07 201400 TO PERM

 

 

[Captain]

RPT's are flying circuits again? What gives?

 

I notice that the RPT's (and most noticeably REX) have started flying circuits again here when the wind is well below their downwind landing capability (as discussed in detail in previous posts in this thread).

 

What is going on?

 

Does anyone know whether a directive has been handed down by CASA or internally within the RPT's.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Maybe CASA weren't such a bunch of dummies after all.