Stopping at Runway Holding Position Markings

[BigPete]

Wow, Captain :heart: - Ya gotta be pleased with your original post. :thumb_up:

 

I mean - over 200 replies and 1736 viewings so far.

 

Maybe we need an award for the best post every month.

 

regards

 

:big_grin::big_grin:

 

 

[Captain]

Wow, Captain :heart: - Ya gotta be pleased with your original post. :thumb_up:I mean - over 200 replies and 1736 viewings so far.

 

Maybe we need an award for the best post every month.

 

regards

Thanks Pete.

 

It has been good and very interesting + provided good insight for me into a lot of issues.

 

NOW - with regard to down wind landings, let me add the following wrinkle that happened here at about 16.30 today.

 

Will Steve please add any comments if I have missed anything in the following.

 

This afternoon at about 16.10 I got my aircraft out of the hangar to take my grandson on a local flight.

 

Soon after I completed the pre-flight, a single engined Piper departed on 05 for a local flight then left the area for Coota, and about 10 minute after that a friend of mine in an RV6 departed on 05 for a local scenic.

 

The wind was clearly down 05 at about 5 knots or so, but I don't know what the AWIS was reporting.

 

As the RV6 departed I gave a taxiing call for 05 and a few minutes later, ahlocks also gave a taxiing call for 05.

 

Mid way through my taxi, a Dash 8 called a 20 mile straight in approach for 23 (down wind) estimating a time of 34, which was about 5 minutes away.

 

As they scoot along and I was not yet at the holding point, nor had I done my run-ups, I called that I would hold at the 05 holding point for the Dash 8 to arrive.

 

At 16.36 he still wasn't on the ground.

 

Then a SAAB called a straight in down wind approach on 23, behind the Dash 8 and as a result, I was twiddling my thumbs at the holding point for what seemed like 10 - 15 minutes.

 

If the Dash 8 had given a more accurate time, I might have departed before he arrived.

 

As previously stated, my attitude is that I do not want to be the 1st RAA aircraft to take out an RPT, and in addition I would prefer that the RPT's at my strip see and report my aircraft as cooperative, proficient, communicative and reliable in my operations (and I believe that Ahlocks has a similar attitude) ..... and so that both RPT operators here aren't trying to get us moved out of this location.

 

SO my questions are as follows:

 

1 How long after an aircraft departs does an active runway stay the active runway?

 

2 Does my taxi call for 05 keep or maintain that as an active runway?

 

3 If I am taxiing for 05 am I in some way "in the circuit"?

 

4 If I am taxiing for 05, do I have any rights over a straight in, down wind approach in the above example?

 

5 What rights did those RPT aircraft have?

 

6 Were those RPT aircraft operating legally?

 

7 Should I have just lined up with the Dash 8 on a 5 mile straight in down wind final & enforced my right of way?

 

8 What would YOU have done?

 

9 What comments would you like to add?

 

Regards

 

Geoff

 

 

[ahlocks]

We were stuck at the holding point for a bit longer than what I'd have thought was polite. Coincidentally my pax was the Cirrus driver I was going to hitch a lift with to Narromine. His comment was "I wish these bastards would get an idea of what ten miles actually looks like."

 

I'll have a cognitate before I have a go at your questions though...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Interesting Captain..

 

I'll have a lash at some of the questions...

 

1. Im not real sure on this one... But id imagine while ever your still in the cct, then that would have to count for something with regards to duty runway.. As soon as you leave the cct then there is no cct traffic, so no duty runway, other then that dictated by wind direction (i guess).

 

2. I don't think a taxi call for a runway would 'hold ' the cct for you, but should alert inbound traffic to what a pilot at the airfield has decided is the best runway..

 

3. I don't think you are In the cct while taxiing.. The reason for the taxicall is to alert other cct traffic or inbouind traffic that there will soon be another player in the air, what runway your gunna use and what taxiways etc.

 

4.All acft waiting to take off must give way to acft on final. That would include acft useing the other runway. However, an acft on a straight in approach is not considerd 'in the cct" untill he is 1 mile final ( i think), before that he has to abide by the other rule that acft IN the cct have right of way..

 

5. The same rights you have.. If you had Just taxiid out and blasted off on 05, they would have had to give way to you ( im not suggesting thats what you should have done).

 

6. were they operating legally??...im stayin well away from that one... read the above post's and make up your own mind;)

 

7.Legally, yes, they were not in the cct and you had no obligation to wait for them.. logically of course this would be a bit silly, other then just departing on xwind.. Do you think you would have had time to do that??.. 20 miles in 5 minutes is 4 miles a minute, or 240 kts.. does anyone know if the speed limit below 10000 is 250 kts in class G??...anyway, it seems a littl hot may but well be the normal approach speed for that sector of the letdown in that acft..

 

8. I would have probably used the above calculation to work out exactly how far out in how many minutes he should be..ie, 4 miles a minute with 20 miles to run would have him on 5 mile final in around 4 minutes.. If i thought that sufficient time to takeoff and be well on xwind by the time he reached 5 mile final then i would have blasted off.. AFTER having a bloody good look for him first... And a radio call to ask for his progress and give your intentions..

 

I think planning to be away before he was 5 mile final is sufficient safety margin..

 

Some good questions there captain... interesting to see what others have to say...

 

 

[BigPete]

OK - lets say that there is no wind or less than 2 - 3 knots at best.

 

1. The active runway is only as good as its last departure/arrival. In other words the active runway can be changed by the last user either by arriving (joining mid down wind for 23) or by departing (entering runway 05 departing for....) unless there is traffic alreaady established in the circuit.

 

2. For most of us (Raa + GA) arriving and hearing your call - yes, but, maybe not by the RPT jockey!!

 

3. You are "in the circuit" as far as being aware of your location and intentions, just the same as an inbound call. You will have to be delt with before too long.

 

4. If you wait and give way to the incoming aircraft then you have in a sense taken control of the situation and given the arriving aircraft right of way. If you choose to enter the runway (lets not get to tied up with who has the right) then you have taken control of the runway - you own it and the incoming aircraft must give it up to you - regardless of your poor airmanship etc etc

 

5. They have no more right than you or I when it comes to the airfield. They (and everyone else) have to conform to aviation laws/rules/requirements.

 

6. Hard to say - we have Air Ambulance landing "downwind" all the time. But in their defence - never more than 5 knots worth.

 

7. You may have had time to depart before the dash 8 arrived - really depends on your skills and his nerves and experience.

 

8. To be honest I would probably do as you did, Wait it out - after all it costs us so little in time and money.

 

9. Every situation is a little different. On a calm day here at Echuca the active runway can and does change as aircraft arrive from the south or the north. Doesn't seem to cause any problems.

 

regards

 

:big_grin::big_grin:

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Just because they have called 'inbound and ten minutes out' doesn't make the runway theirs. That is just a traffic advisory call. Had you been holding at the end of the runway, or holding and ready for an immediate departure, you would be quite justified in replying "aircraft such and such departing runway 05 and rolling, will turn R (or L) after takeoff to clear circut for inbound traffic" they may reply "thank you for that such and such, we have you visual, and will continue straight in approach runway 23" It's just a matter of communicating. If of course your departure from 05 puts you in short term conflict with the incoming traffic, then you would be showing good airmanship, and good judgement by holding and awaiting his arrival, as it appears you may have done. I have been cleared for an immediate takeoff in the States by a controller with an aircraft on a half mile final. As long as everyone knows what is occuring. ...............................................................................................

 

 

[facthunter]

priority.

 

A fundamental not mentioned on this thread (unless I have missed it) is that landing aircraft have PRIORITY over aircraft on the ground . If you think about it this is how it must be. Strange that it hasn't been mentioned before. Perhaps the "powers" don't understand the philosophy. Nev..

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I've always understood that you can't land on a runway if it is occupied by another aircraft ??.....................what you are suggesting is that I can touch down on a runway, with another aircraft rolling for takeoff halfway down that runway. If that is not the case, than the aircraft on the runway must have right of way, not the landing one...................................................................................................

 

 

[ahlocks]

I suppose a link to the regulation and a comment that "it's all in there" probably was a bit too subtle in hindsight.....

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Am I expected to now fit a file cabinet full of regulations to my aircraft, no one in the world has that much brain storage/retrival capacity.

 

Lets be real here, we are expected to, as PIC, to exercise good judgement, good decision making, use common sense and common courtesy, fly safe, and communicate sensibly with fellow airspace users. It happens every day....exactly what part of good airmanship don't you understand ?. Remember the ones writing the regulations are sitting safely in air conditioned offices sipping coffee, and might have been for a ride in an aeroplane ......

 

 

[ahlocks]

Read through a few pages of a document and recognise how the contents relate to good airmanship and apply that knowledge in a practical manner. I didn't think it was that hard...

 

Are we being real here, or just engaging in a game of brinksmanship?

 

 

[Captain]

On reflection, perhaps I should rephrase my question (2) to read as follows:

 

Do the departure calls from the preceding aircraft off 05, and my subsequent taxiing call to 05, then reinforced by Steve's taxiing call to 05, clearly establish (at least by those that are looking at the wind-socks) that 05 is the active runway and therefore trigger the "land into the wind where practicable" (by either regulation or moral) obligation on the 2 RPT aircraft?

 

Note - And let me add that if they had modified their calls to then be 10 miles out on a long downwind for 05, I believe that I would have departed, and Steve would have had plenty of time to get away too.

 

The issue for me is that even though I couldn't see their landing lights once I had completed my run-up checks, and I tried to compute where they should have been by that time, IMHO it is a BIG call to enter the runway and roll towards an RPT that you know is on a straight in, and by his radio call, by that time should have been on the ground.

 

(As an aside, the guy in the Dash 8 checked our intentions, was courteous and thanked us both for waiting. The guy in the SAAB just barged on in and said nothing to us).

 

 

[motzartmerv]

No way.. a rude Rex pilot.. you must be mistaken..;)

 

 

[BigPete]

Lets put the shoe on the other foot......

 

I'm arriving at the airfield (10 mile inbound call - 6 minutes from circuit) and I know (through good airmanship) :big_grin: that the into wind runway is 05 (10 knots). :thumb_up: I then hear Rex give a taxi call for 23, followed almost immediately by the dash 8. (for the same runway). :yuk:

 

Ahh

 

regards

 

:big_grin::big_grin:

 

 

[Captain]

Lets put the shoe on the other foot......I'm arriving at the airfield (10 mile inbound call - 6 minutes from circuit) and I know (through good airmanship) :big_grin: that the into wind runway is 05 (10 knots). :thumb_up: I then hear Rex give a taxi call for 23, followed almost immediately by the dash 8. (for the same runway). :yuk: Ahh regards

That happens quite a bit here Pete.

 

And in your example, they will both need to backtrack on 05, so the runway will be occupied for a while.

 

What I do in that situation is stooge around outside the circuit until they are clear, then overfly just to double check the windsock.

 

But it makes life interesting.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[ahlocks]

...But it makes life interesting.

Indeed it does.

 

But it's all worth it...you just can't beat the view!

 

Cheers!

 

 

[turboplanner]

....while there's still life in your eyes....

 

Sometimes you can over-analyse a situation:

 

The RPT’s had an obligation to check the wind direction before starting their approach*

 

*

 

CAR166 (3)

 

The Pilot in Command of an aircraft may carry out a straight in approach to a non - controlled aerodrome only if:

 

© Before starting the approach, the pilot determines wind directions and runways in use

 

If they had done that, they had an obligation to land on 05 (in this case given the aircraft were suitable for 05)

 

They had the option on 05 for a normal circuit or a straight in landing

 

They had an obligation to state their intention for a straight in landing before 10 Nm

 

They had an obligation to establish on final for 05 at 5 miles

 

They had an obligation to call “Three mile final, 05”

 

They had an obligation to call “One mile final, 05, and their intention (full stop)”

 

You had only given a taxy call, and had not entered the runway, so there was no question of who had right of way in this case.

 

If the above sequence had been followed, you would have had ample time to depart without any delay, and, since the radio calls are designed to give you a reference to the aircraft’s position, you would have had much more material to work out where they were (According to a quick check, the Dash 8 final speed is around 120 kts – not much different to a Baron.)

 

The 20 mile straight in call met the regulation, but I see it as a “scatter the pigeons out of the way call”.

 

The example does show the increased complication, and risk, when you have to assess where an aircraft is when it is on a reciprocal heading to you, and take a gamble on when you, at climb speed, can turn on to crosswind before the incoming aircraft gets you.

 

The departing RV must also have been heading into the incoming aircraft path.

 

You don’t need a plane load of books – all of what went wrong here is contained in one regulation.

 

This is the exact scenario I put to CASA, and as I’ve posted above, CASA are in no doubt about the legality of this.

 

If you had entered the runway it would have been a double Proximity Incident where the participants would have been able to state their reasons.

 

I’m sympathetic to the politics of it, but if you start to enter the game, its going to be a high risk game.

 

 

[Captain]

.... If you had entered the runway it would have been a double Proximity Incident where the participants would have been able to state their reasons.

......... if they survived.

 

Thanks for your note Tubb. That is sort of what I thought.

 

The RV6 departed on the into wind runway just like we all usually do (how dumb is that) ..... and before the RPT's gave a call.

 

One of the other things that I learnt here some time ago is NEVER ... EVER maintain anywhre near the runway alignment after departure, even when I am heading for somewhere bearing 05 or 23 .... as you are likely to end up with a windsreen full of RPT who is on descent and has set up for a downwind straight in, say 30 miles out before they give a call.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, I certainly made a mental note about departure too!

 

 

[ahlocks]

...You don’t need a plane load of books – all of what went wrong here is contained in one regulation.

And why a lump of plastic and a bucket of rivets didn't end up as hood ornaments on a Dash or SAAB is because of all of what went right also being contained in that same regulation.

 

...and here am I thinking I was just yanking your tail just for fun all this time.

 

 

[GraemeK]

To me, this boils down to airmanship - the Captain exhibited good airmanship (and good judgement) in holding clear of the runway for the RPT and by clearly communicating his intentions.

 

The RPT pilot was the reverse. If he truly called at 20nm with 5 minutes to run, he should have been on the ground close to 34. The fact that he was still on approach at 36 suggests his call was made further out than 20nm - and that is just plain crap airmanship. If I'm flying around 25nm out to the east of the field and hear his 20nm inbound call for 23, I feel reasonably safe (he's past me and heading away from me). The last thing I'd expect is to find him up my clacker because he was actually 28nm out when he made the call. (Although one of the thing's I've learnt is to take inbound positions with a grain of salt - many times people are way out!).

 

Call me cynical if you like, but I reckon he heard the Captain's taxi call and then made his inbound call early to make sure no-one got in his way - after all, who cares about stuffing around a lowly rec pilot when you've got a few gold stripes and a few pax in the back! As turbo said, a “scatter the pigeons out of the way call”.

 

And, while there is no requirement or need to acknowledge a positional call, to me it would have just been good airmanship to respond appropriately to the Captain's holding call (provided of course the frequency was not too busy).

 

 

[Ultralights]

 

not uncommon sadly, the rex aircraft departed with a tail wind, runway 27, when there were 2 other aircraft on base and final for runway 09.... when asked what he was doing the rex crew replied, its ok the aircraft is rated to take off and land with a tail wind!

 

what a load of bullXXXXe.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Should have asked him if its rated for collisions...

 

 

[facthunter]

Why?

 

Landings with 15 Kt's of downwind are only indulged in by pilots who do not have to pay for the brake maintenance. It is POOR airmanship. What do not they care about what it does to the rest of the "lesser persons" who are in the circuit. It is about time that the matter was addressed by CASA. in legal terms.Till this is sorted out I do not suggest that any individual pilot make a stand on the issue except in print. Where you fit in the circuit should not have anything to do with how "big" your aircraft is. Nev..

 

 

[Captain]

As a matter of interest, can anyone get their hands on some facts about how much A1 a Dash 8 or SAAB would use to fly a circuit, as opposed to what they would use for a down-wind straight-in (or down-wind straight-out)?

 

My guess is that it would add about 10 Nm, but at a low power setting on approach?

 

On departure I guess that it could add say 5 Nm at climb power?