Soggy Natfly....

April 15, 2009

We've been over this a few times before. They can take away a cert, ground an aircraft or request that certs be re-applied for / remediation training, but no fines can be imposed.

Any one of the previous would be relevant.

Hard to prove though and puts them in the position of judge, jury and executioner which causes many problems, especially when peoples livelihoods are at stake.

turboplanner · April 16, 2009

Brent, are you suggesting the RAA should sit back and do nothing?

Captain · April 16, 2009

Hard to prove though and puts them in the position of judge, jury and executioner which causes many problems, especially when peoples livelihoods are at stake.

That is the price of power, Brent. The RAA either controls this part of the game or it doesn't.

When I was involved in road racing motorcycles, the controlling body had a sanctioning mechanism which involved penalties and an appeal/jury system headed up by a legal person and populated by reasonably, emminent, sensible, pragmatic people from within the sport. That all worked pretty well and was fairly well accepted, even by those that were on the receiving end.

Does the RAA have something similar?

HEON · April 16, 2009

I know a lot has been said about some of the stupid flying that was displayed over Easter but if the pilots (and I use the word with some reservations) consider it satisfactory something HAS to be done to stop such stupidy. I personally beleave in the Darwin theory of evolution but they may kill someone elce as well.

I probably missed some displays but I saw enough, especially as the storm approached on Friday evening!

April 16, 2009

they were hang gliding at forbes all easter week end they do aero towing with baily moyes dragon fly.

April 16, 2009

Brent, are you suggesting the RAA should sit back and do nothing?

Nope, that's not what I said. Do you work for the media?

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I said they can impose penalties but not of the financial kind and unless someone high up was watching closely, it's hard to prove, and I'm not talking about the lord almighty.

April 19, 2009

Hello Everyone,

I would just like to add to this conversation. Firstly, I personally know the aircraft (SR22) and pilot in question.......accused of taking off into a thunderstorm and flying in other than VMC conditions. Natfly is run with the emphasis on Recreational Aircraft, however, it is not limited to just RAAus pilots and aircraft. The SR22 in question is a fully IFR rated aircraft with Stormscope, and the pilot, holding an ATPL, is a current, competent pilot with thousands of hours, the majority flying IFR aircraft in IMC.

Most airlines PPM (pilots procedures manual) states that 3nm in non downwind conditions from a terminal area thunderstorm is considered safe for take off and landing. Indications were that the aircraft was at least 4nm from the storm cell. In no way was the safety of the flight or passengers at risk.

Although RAAus pilots don't generally receive training in conditions such as these, I am disappointed that people are pointing fingers at others for unsafe flying when correct and safe procedures were used. An IFR pilot flying into IMC in an IFR rated aircraft equipped with stormscope is not going to kill someone, even close to a thunderstorm.

I do however applaud you for speaking up with regard to circumstances you may think are dangerous. More people in aviation need to have the 'guts' to do this. I completely agree that an RAAus licenced pilot in a VFR aircraft doing the same thing would be VERY dangerous and silly to say the least. It is all about circumstances, and I ask you to not be so quick next time to jump to conclusions.

Regards and safe flying to you all,

Bo84

Skyhog · April 19, 2009

Yeah,I was a bit suprised to see him depart in that weather.Now you have put the facts forward though,I guess it isn't as bad as it looked.That Cirrus is a beautiful machine!

Yenn · April 19, 2009

So all those who saw the Cirrus depart were too far away to see the rego was VH not an RAAus number. It had to be for the pilot to be legal and did not depend on the pilots ability alone.

April 19, 2009

Ian,

Not quite sure what you mean with regard to the aircrafts rego......yes it does have to be VH registered to be legal and yes it is VH registered as RAAus aircraft cannot and should not fly in IMC conditions. I completely agree that it does not depend on just the pilots ability.

bo84

Skyhog · April 19, 2009

There are NO RAAus reg'd aircraft with a 310hp engine.If you were within 3kms and knew anything about aircraft,it would be clear that it wasn't RAAus.There is a very distinctive sound created by 300+hp and 3 blade prop.

poteroo · April 19, 2009

'An IFR pilot flying into IMC in an IFR rated aircraft equipped with a Stormscope is not going to kill anyone, even close to a thunderstorm'

Really? That's a sweeping statement if ever I've heard one.

The accident records around the world, and Australia, show that it matters little what you're driving, what's in the panel, or how hot an IFR driver you are - if you chance your arm near an obvious TS, or into Wx with embedded TS..... there is every chance of your having a rough ride, and maybe worse.

In any case, 4nm from any storm cell is well within microburst range. Regardless of whether there's a rule which covers it, flying in stormy conditions presents higher risk. Why tempt fate?

happy days,

April 20, 2009

I was there and I am a GA pilot with instrument experience along with another experienced instrument rated pilot standing within close proximity to me and WE were all pointing the finger.

There was a thunderstorm as good as over the field with lightning within what appeared to be a few kilometres. There was also dense rain falling over the field. The aircraft departed towards 'black' clouds with no visible horizon, albiet they would have seen the horizon out to the site of them. Personally I find it hard to believe that the pilot would have sit in the aircraft as the storm approached, watching the stormscope to see if the lightning was 4nm away rather than 3nm away. All I can say is that I WAS THERE and I SAW with my own 20/20 vision that lightning was VERY close to the field prior, including, during and after the Cirrus departure. My estimates put a lightning strike within 2 kms as the aircraft rolled down the runway.

The aircraft was VH-JRL, a Cirrus SR22 and I know the owners of it from previous business dealings. They used to have 2 SR22's in their name, JRL and LRJ.

I have around 20 hours in VH-JRL in my log book and last time I flew it, it DIDN'T have a stormscope fitted. It did have the Terrain awareness fitted when I last flew it. It has the standard Avidyne EFIS fitted and was upgraded to terrain awareness a couple of years after it was new. Admittedly it may have been upgraded later.

I don't know any instrument rated pilots that would take off in a thunderstorm if they had the option to wait for it to pass. I can't think of any reason why this aircraft couldn't have waited a little longer before it's return to Aldinga, unless perhaps it was a charter flight which could not legally be conducted at night. The last aircraft I'm ware of that attempted to fly through a thunderstorm was a Chieftain and it crashed will all on board subsequently deceased.

Perhaps the GA world will benefit by the introduction of human factors which have not been implemented as yet, although someone with this level of experience should have surely completed these modules as part of their ATPL.

I will never except the excuse of "he's an airline pilot with 10,000 hours, he knows what he's doing" for poor airmanship and it would be extremely unlikely for a pilot to have completed the majority of his flight as IFR in IMC, it simply doesn't work like that.

JRL is not an airliner.

BO84, were you at Narromine when the Cirrus departed?

markendee · April 20, 2009

I have kept out of this as I just thought it very odd.

I was sitting in my Savannah with a mate one hundred or so meters from the aircraft when it took off.

The mate saw him taxiing and commented that he was surely not about to take off. my reply was "he is just moving the aircraft to a safer place"

I had decided to check on the ropes holding my plane and then decided to sit in it for extra ballast. The mate had just checked his ropes and sat in with me during the worst of the storm.

Couldn't believe it when he rolled and took off.

I don't know much about stormscopes and the like but I have seen what a good bolt of lightning, severe winds and wild weather can do.

Gamer than me.

Mark.

Barefootpilot · April 20, 2009

I'm not buying in on this as I was not there but if it was a charter flight he shouldn't have been going IFR anyway in a piston single.

So did people actually have a good time apart from the rain???

April 20, 2009

Brent,

Think about what you're saying. From the small amount of your posts that I have read, I can say that it appears that once you have made up your mind about something, you are not very receptive to others input, advice/criticism etc. We are all wrong sometimes. I am just asking that instead of getting completely fired up about things, be prepared to find out and take into consideration other sides of a story before making a conclusion.

I am disappointed to hear about people flying in conditions that are not legally achievable to even a fully trained IFR pilot. The pilot taking off into a 100ft cloudbase and using his iphone is just crazy and 100% negligent. If he is doing things like this and telling people too, it is the sort of thing that needs sorting out. I have not, and I believe most of the aviation community have no respect for pilots like this.

I am interested in a couple of your previous posts, one where you stated that "At times on the flight out I was solely on instruments and would not have contemplated flying in those conditions without them!" In a subsequent post you stated that "I am a GA pilot with instrument experience". Does this then mean that you were flying solely with reference to your instruments with only instrument experience and no actual instrument rating??? Just wondering......

You mentioned that the SR22 had "no visible horizon, albeit they would have seen the horizon out to the side of them" which in itself leads me to believe that you are not an IFR pilot............IFR in IMC.........YOU DO NOT REQUIRE A VISIBLE HORIZON. The excuse, as you put it about the pilot being an airline pilot......I never mentioned that in my post and I don't believe it has much to do with the situation.

I would just like to say once again, that it is a pilots own judgement of the weather conditions, flight type, aircraft and equipment as to the safest way to conduct the flight. The pilot assessed this and made a decision, it was raining, you can fly in rain, there was a storm cell to the North, he was departing to the South etc etc. I understand that people may have been concerned, and sometimes a decision from a more experienced and differently licenced pilot may appear unsafe to the less experienced.

Anyway, I have said my bit on that and am not willing to let the conversation degenerate any further than it already has.

Ultralights · April 20, 2009

flying an IFR equipped aircraft, with a Current IFR licence, into IMC, even with TS's nearby isn't Illegal ! unwise? maybe. illegal NO.

as for the weather, were the Storms Towering CU? or just CU with heavy rain and lightning?

April 20, 2009

Ultralights, you are indeed correct, unwise, yes, illegal no. I don't think anyone has said the actions were illegal, but were questioning the actions of the pilot in questionable conditions.

Those that wonder what the weather was like, please see the attached picture which was taken as the storm approached. It didn't clear for quite some time. I'll let readers of the thread decide if they would like to take off if this weather was over the field.

I'm not prepared to enter into further discussions with someone who wasn't there or won't admit to being there and didn't witness the departure.

For the record I am aware that flight into IMC conditions under IFR quite obviously don't require a visible horizon. If you are going to scruitinize every word I won't participate in the discussion. I'm not the only one that has questioned the actions of the pilot in this thread.

I was in a number of aircraft coming and going into Narromine over the weekend, both instrument equipped and now for the record I am not instrument rated (apologies for the previous post reading like I was). If I was IFR rated, I would not have departed at that time. If it is your intention to defend the pilot in question, please direct him / her to this site rather than argue through a proxy.

Agreed though, the abundance of cloud made for some good instrument experience on the weekend into and out of Dubbo in my mate's IFR RV (he is an experienced instructor) but we kept it safe by not flying in dangerous conditions. You may have seen us coming and going if you were there.

kevinfrost · April 20, 2009

I can understand why RAA Aus conducts it's disciplinary processes without drums & fanfare on this site where it has no control on the banter. It would only fuel the drama queens and create an even worse reputation for RAA Aus, or perhaps that's the aim of some. Our record is a lot better than GA for the last couple of years and we probably fly more hours per AC than they do. I'm not saying we turn a blind eye to bad aimanship, there are channels we can go through to report affences and our hard working board would respond. And if we're not happy with the performance of the office holders, next election put your hand up. A course in diplomacy could be a start.

Admin · April 22, 2009

I have just uploaded about 100 pictures of Natfly 2009 into the photo gallery that my son and daughter (age 7 & 11) photographed. However, in amongst the many images of the ground, my daughter's Nintendo DS, my son's shoes and many other images that I have no clue on what they are, I was able to extract some good non aircraft ones. All the aircraft ones are in the photo gallery:

Recreational Flying - Photo Gallery - Recreational Flying Flyins