Radio call syntax

[motzartmerv]

Well my friend, i just 2 days ago was tested at length by casa ATO on exactly this subject as part of my CFI's test.. I have been extensivley "grilled" on correct procedures from the go get as the school i work for trains would be airline pilots primarilly.. I will dig out the correct phraseology for you if you like.They are in the AIP. So we can then all go on arguing about "interpreting" them..

 

And yes, i agree, my use of language is quite poor.. But it isn't when im in the air..

 

And as to the third person thing.. Ill simplify for you.. When you give a call in the third person you are talking as though you are watching the aircraft from elswhere as apposed to being in it.. Ill give you an every day example.. When you watch someone else cross a road you could say "bob crosses the road".. but if you are bob, and you are crossing the road, you would say "im crossing the road"... would you like some pictures drawn to illustrate?? or are we getting it now??

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

so Merv here you are about to blast off in kilo zulu papa to do a para drop at FL140.

 

how are you going to do it?

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's a vaild question Ozzie, I take it you are entering the Sydney control zone, need to flight plan, request airways clearance etc, but the gist of this thread centres round a very simple radio message.

 

It's like trying to get a kid to take his medicine. It's going to make him better, but he doesn't want to do it.

 

 

[Guest Decca]

I just assumed Ozzie's sense of humor, and a standard (short term) response for a common request; ATC need time for this one.

 

Decca.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

No this is just a "all stations" call CTA starts at 10,000ft

 

Years ago to save having to file a flight plan every time you did a load they allowed you to ring the controller before commencing the first load and give them the call sign and estimate how many loads during the day.

 

so just the general all staions for the example will do for this. But just for interest a load at YELD would go a bit like this.

 

General all stations as per previous post. Approaching 10,000ft the lower level CTA you change freq contact controller request airways clearance to FL140. You are already squawking and use the same freq all day. confirm squawk. approaching top of climb contact controller and obtain clearance to drop AND decent. Change freqs back to 126.7 and give the two minute to drop broadcast. when last person out, roll it over and call 'drop complete and on decent'. passing 10,000ft flip back to SYD and call OCTA, flip back to 126.7, have a bit of fun on the way down, and give a finals call.

 

the intent is to broadcast all the required information with out ratteling on with unneeded words, nothing worse than having someone come back with 'aircraft calling ELD say again all after 'all traffic ELD'

 

but is it 'all staions/traffic ***, or, *** traffic.

 

80 posts on this lol

 

ozzie

 

 

[Ben Longden]

82.... and counting....

 

Ben

 

 

[Cosmick]

Communication

 

I've only been flying a short time, a couple of years in PPC's and now up to circuits in fixed wing. I fly Caboolture which shares 118.8 with Redcliffe and Caloundra. I use "(location) traffic" as taught but after reading this thread like "Traffic (location)". Not catching the location will distract you from tasks at hand.

 

I've only been a pilot for a short time but I have been around for quite a while. The intention of communication is for the other party to understand what you want them to know, in life or on the radio. KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Teach how to communicate clearly and simply and how to operate a radio.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ozzie, thats very interesting stuff.. But doesn't have much to do with whats been discussed here.. Phraseology...

 

Ps, how many final legs do you fly??...

 

 

[Guest AVU]

Radio transmission Ga vis RA-Aus

 

The Casa requirement was (2005 info supplied via detailed promotion) all Ultralight A/C should indentify themselfs with (Ultralight XXXX) Turning or joining whatever leg, inbound or departing. Yet by close study of the (RA-Aus) documentation require the designated type of Ultralight A/C reporting the activity. The way we teach our trainees is to comply with both Casa and RA-Aus and use both standards.

 

So the use is before taxying is (XXXX Traffic) place of operation. Ultralight XXXX taxying runway xyz for local flight (or your normal departure). Training Ccts. Followed by location. XXXX. Hope this will help to clarify some of the fog that seem to shroud this situation,. Remember Aviate, Navigate and if you can communicate.

 

Cheers.

 

Steve.

 

 

[turboplanner]

For those coming in late, Post #20 Ahlocks, Post #39 Tomo, have the correct procedure, and in post #56 Ahlocks explains where "All stations" fits in.

 

Microphone clipping is corrected with about the same effort as learning the various circuit calls and locations.

 

Voice activated microphones could be a hazard

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

merv , fly right down to 500ft at 140kts pull the power wash off speed to enter at a tight short base just under a grand. start extending flap 100kts and finish checks during the short final. short sortie times paramount here. if flying the beaver or porter you could start a final approach at 10,00ft

 

phraseology? didn't you turn it into a english lesson. rolls rolling ect

 

you still haven't answered my question. how would you do it?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ozzie, i didnt turn it into an english lesson.. i have only been talking about phraseology. How would i what??...climb to fl140 and come back again??...

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

how would you broadcast the departure call?

 

 

[pudestcon]

To 'Ultralight' or not

 

Very interesting thread guys,

 

I've been discussing this subject, prompted by this thread with my instructor Steve (AVU who has posted on this thread).

 

This is my understanding.... Hit the button and wait a second, then "{location} traffic, {type of ultralight} XXXX, position, intention, {location}" wait a second before releasing the button.

 

Now my question, and I'll discuss this with Steve next time we meet, is.... Should the aircraft identification include the 'Ultralight' tag only or the type of ultralight only, or both? Does it matter if you just use one or the other?

 

Pud

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

Well my friend, i just 2 days ago was tested at length by casa ATO on exactly this subject as part of my CFI's test.. And as to the third person thing.. Ill simplify for you.. When you give a call in the third person you are talking as though you are watching the aircraft from elswhere as apposed to being in it.. Ill give you an every day example.. When you watch someone else cross a road you could say "bob crosses the road".. but if you are bob, and you are crossing the road, you would say "im crossing the road"... would you like some pictures drawn to illustrate?? or are we getting it now??

That's great you must be very proud. The message I'm giving is that it is your pet hate. I don't care if it is your pet hate or not. Show me where it is wrong.

 

 

And please, don't be condescending, I know all about third person and first person. I spend most of my working life writing lengthy reports in both first and third depending on the circumstances and for way more important people than CASA.

 

 

All that really matters in this is that it is present tense, i.e. it is happening right now and in each case it is. First person present tense or third person present tense as long as the receiver of the information knows exactly where that aircraft is.

 

 

So go on and have a pet hate, that is ok, we all do however please don’t shove them down them everyone’s neck.

 

 

Remember, professionalism is something that is judged by others, not simply an opinion of yourself.

 

 

[ahlocks]

Pud,

 

'tis my understanding that it is type, i.e. Tecnam, Jabiru, Drifter etc, then the last four digits of the registration number. If all else fails, use "ultralight" then last four digits of rego number.

 

The correct(est) answer is buried in the RAA ops manual. (sorry, haven't got time to go look for it ATM)

 

Cheers!

 

Here you go;

 

http://www.raa.asn.au/opsmanual/4-02.pdf

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

Very interesting thread guys..... Should the aircraft identification include the 'Ultralight' tag only or the type of ultralight only, or both? Does it matter if you just use one or the other?

Pud

Is a CASA VH registered Jabiru, Gazelle or say, a Bantam, an "ultralight" when it comes to communication protocol?

 

 

[ahlocks]

Well, we're not gunna find that answer in the RAA ops manual are we...;)

 

http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/aip/gen/3_4_1-25.pdf

 

Aircraft call signs start at 4.15

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

I would suggest that tags are useful and provide additional information for the recognition of the aircraft, such as size, shape and importantly speed.

 

For example:

 

"Radar.... Cessna 172 Alpha Bravo Charlie ....."

 

and

 

"Radar....Cessna Citation ......"

 

In this case, the tag "172" and "Citation" is very relevant.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Now my question, and I'll discuss this with Steve next time we meet, is.... Should the aircraft identification include the 'Ultralight' tag only or the type of ultralight only, or both? Does it matter if you just use one or the other?

It should be the type only. HGFA trikes shouls all use "Microlight" (& this is common for RAAus registered ones also).

 

Is a CASA VH registered Jabiru, Gazelle or say, a Bantam, an "ultralight" when it comes to communication protocol?

"Ultralight" isn't part of the callsign so its simply "Gazelle Alpha Bravo Charlie" or "Gazelle Twelve Thirty Four".

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

It should be the type only. HGFA trikes shouls all use "Microlight" (& this is common for RAAus registered ones also).

 

"Ultralight" isn't part of the callsign so its simply "Gazelle Alpha Bravo Charlie" or "Gazelle Twelve Thirty Four".

 

Cheers

 

John

John, this raises another syntax issue, the phrasing of numbers in call signs. Shouldn't your example be: "Gazelle One Two Three Four"?

 

Ref Visual Flight Rules Guide PP35 - Words and phrases, and pp65 - Call signs.

 

 

[ahlocks]

I would suggest that tags are useful and provide additional information for the recognition of the aircraft, such as size, shape and importantly speed.../...In this case, the tag "172" and "Citation" is very relevant.

Too right! :thumb_up:

 

Some of them Jabirus are slicker than snot.....

 

...if you believe their owners. (I'm gunna regret this one aren't I...:black_eye:)

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

Too right! :thumb_up:Some of them Jabirus are slicker than snot.....

...if you believe their owners. (I'm gunna regret this one aren't I...:black_eye:)

I imagine so, ahlocks!

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

John, this raises another syntax issue, the phrasing of numbers in call signs. Shouldn't your example be: "Gazelle One Two Three Four"?Ref Visual Flight Rules Guide PP35 - Words and phrases, and pp65 - Call signs.

Congratulations - I was hoping somebody would pick up on that !

 

According to RAAus ops manual either "One Two Three Four" or "Twelve ThirtyFour" is permissible. I don't think this used to be the case but guess the rationale is that's its much easier to remember 2 numbers rather than 4. See Human Factors - short term memory.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

Congratulations - I was hoping somebody would pick up on that !According to RAAus ops manual either "One Two Three Four" or "Twelve ThirtyFour" is permissible. I don't think this used to be the case but guess the rationale is that's its much easier to remember 2 numbers rather than 4. See Human Factors - short term memory.

 

Cheers

 

John

John, the problem will arise when RA-Aus registers its 10,000th aircraft. Then, for example, "Jabiru Citation 10123", would you announce:

 

"Ten, 0neHoundredAndTwentyThree", or

 

"OneHundredAndOne, TwentyThree", or perhaps

 

"TenTwelveThree"?