Radio call syntax

[Captain]

I agree with many of the early posts in this thread that mention the issue of clipping at the start of transmissions, and it is important that this be overcome.

 

This is a particular issue in areas where there are numerous strips all on 126.7 resulting in multiple transmissions during busy periods .

 

By commencing with "All Stations ....." or "All Traffic ....." it removes the problem of clipping of the location and also gives pilots a fraction of a second lead into listening for the location.

 

And that works well, in my view.

 

I, for one, will continue to use that method at the start of a transmission, and I hope others do too.

 

Almost everyone around this area uses the closing ref to the location too.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[ahlocks]

I seriously doubt that anyone would get into strife over such a trivial issue. Probably only relevant around BFR time.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

If i was picky (;)) i would argue the logic behind making one mistake ( on purpose) to overcome the pittfalls of making another mistake (the clipping issue)..But im not, so i won't...

 

 

[John Brandon]

John,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agree that "Traffic" or "All stations" followed by location makes the most sense to reduce the importance of the first word in case of being clipped, but our esteemed regulator doesn't unfortunately.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the obligatory reference;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CAR 1988

 

 

 

82A Use of radiocommunication systems: words and phrases to be

 

 

 

used

 

 

 

(1) CASA may give directions in relation to the words and phrases to be

 

 

 

used in communicating with, or in relation to, aircraft, using

 

 

 

radiocommunication systems approved under subregulation 82 (1).

 

 

 

 

(2) A direction must be published in AIP or NOTAMS.

 

AIP Part two - Enroute

 

21.

 

RADIO COMMUNICATION AND NAVIGATION REQUIREMENTS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

21.1.12 The standard broadcast format is;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

a. {Location} Traffic

 

 

 

 

 





 

 

 

 

 

b. {Aircraft type}

 

 

 

 

 

 

c. {Callsign}

 

d. {Position/intentions}

 

 

e. {Location}

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, AIP ENR 1.1 section 21.1 is what I have based the standard R/T procedures in the RA-Aus website on. However that does not change the fact that AIP ENR 1.1 section 68.4 states 'all stations' MUST precede a general information broadcast. (That AIP page is dated 12 MAR 09 and the section 21.1 page is dated 22 NOV 07). So, in my opinion, both formats are currently not equally valid in AIP because of the use of the term 'must' and the fact that section 68 specifically deals with R/T requirements outside controlled airspace whereas section 21 is headed 'Radio communication and navigation requirements'; i.e. it is more generalised.

What it means is you can take your pick and still be covered by the AIP Book until such time as the AIP publishers make up their minds and tidy up AIP.

 

There is another anomaly I have noticed in AIP which brings into question whether a hand-held transceiver is legal in Class E or other CTA.

 

John Brandon

 

 

[Captain]

If i was picky (;)) i would argue the logic behind making one mistake ( on purpose) to overcome the pittfalls of making another mistake (the clipping issue)..But im not, so i won't...

Hey Motza. Does that mean you are for us or agin us?

 

 

[ahlocks]

John,

 

.....presumably been promoted by CASA, but not in any authoritative document.

was the point I was addressing.

I'm definitely not interested in starting another brawl over regulations! ;)

 

Cheers!

 

Steven B.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

captain.. All for 1 , 1 for all ... Like ahlocks im not gunna push a view over a small reg technicality..

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I think that when it all boils down it just matters that other pilots know your location and intentions clearly and preciesly.

 

As long as there are changes being made every few years for whatever reasons we will have various generations of pilots who will tend to follow what they were originally taught and have used in practise rather than retrain and use the newer procedure. The real danger is those who do not broadcast to avoid fees, or who like our RPT friends "take over" the active runway direction by doing the opposite to those already there.(like the downwind takeoff to save the company a few pounds of fuel and engine time). The problem with our imported students is that they should be made not to just learn how to speak and understand english but how to correctly annunciate the terminology and phrases correctly under a high cockpit workload.

 

If you go overseas and fly in a country that uses local lingo on the radio you will experience the same problems that that non Aussie students are experiencing here.

 

i know i did when i went to Italy. Imagine that english is your second language. and someone throws a book of CASA gobbily gook on your lap and expects you to completly understand what it says and really means. Not defending these students but the blame as to there shortfalls in radio use is not being correctly addressed by the instructors and CASA.

 

Ozzie

 

 

[turboplanner]

There are two reasons to fix a clipping habit rather than change the call order:

 

1. You may get onto a situation where you only have time to yell a one or two word warning, and that will be clipped.

 

2. It's as much cadence or rhythm as words. Often, even though the words are drowned by static, you know what the message is by its pattern. If you break up the pattern that's a little less safety.

 

I'm tying to find an example of a test paragraph where students were asked to read out the message even though every vowell and half the consonants had been taken out. Most people read it fluently.

 

To eliminate clipping, just sit in the AC without power and visually check the mic button - I've clipped and fixed it.

 

 

[BigPete]

Well, I've re-read the thread, and I can't help thinking that Bill nailed it in his opening post. I've also noticed of late that radio broadcasts are not always ending in "xxxx traffic" which sometimes makes the whole call a complete waste of time. The biggest problem we face is the fact that most people who make bad calls are NOT members of this forum. In other words we are preaching to the converted.

 

BUT - my biggest problem is although I believe that "Traffic xxxx" is a better call method, I will continue to use "xxxx traffic" because it is what we are supposed to do.

 

It would be good to change it.

 

regards

 

 

[turboplanner]

BigPete, the correct ending is just the location (See John Brandon's post) no need for a second traffic, but if they are forgetting the final location that's more of a problem.

 

I agree Bill got it, so Bill, how about writing a letter to CASA requesting a change to the opening sequence, so they can put it on the agenda. There might be an ICAO reason, but otherwise it wouldn't seem such a big drama to change it officially.

 

 

[Guest Decca]

Sorry to throw this in at this late stage but I just haven't had a chance to check with my instructor.

 

I'm sure it was he who told me the reason for the last word of the transmission (Location) is in case those listening missed the very first word (Location), which as we've noticed is often "clipped".

 

Doesn't matter anyway, would still be good to get a definitive response from the authority.

 

Decca.

 

 

[Tomo]

Doesn't matter anyway, would still be good to get a definitive response from the authority.

Ahlocks has already quoted that, Here it is again:

 

CAR 1988

 

82A Use of radiocommunication systems: words and phrases to be

 

used

 

(1) CASA may give directions in relation to the words and phrases to be

 

used in communicating with, or in relation to, aircraft, using

 

radiocommunication systems approved under subregulation 82 (1).

 

(2) A direction must be published in AIP or NOTAMS.

 

AIP Part two - Enroute

 

21.

 

RADIO COMMUNICATION AND NAVIGATION REQUIREMENTS

 

21.1.12 The standard broadcast format is;

 

a. {Location} Traffic

 

b. {Aircraft type}

 

c. {Callsign}

 

d. {Position/intentions}

 

e. {Location}

 

 

[Guest Decca]

Good call, Tomo. These days I blame the chemo for slips like that. I'm sure it had something to do with my memory too.

 

It was more the reason for why {Location} appears at the very beginning & very end of the broadcast.

 

Thanks, Decca.

 

 

[ahlocks]

I got chipped for using "traffic" then "location" during training. At the time I explained that I had done so, as this was a practice that was used by an organisation I am associated with, to prevent the more important parts of the message from being clipped by PTT mistiming or slow trunking in the R/T network.

 

My instructor replied "That is why you repeat the location at the end of the broadcast." - That was good enough for this little black duck.

 

 

[BigPete]

Dunno about that ahlocks.

 

If that really was the reason (as stated by your instructor), then why would we bother with the first line at all unless, i_dunno

 

we say it first in case we miss it last :confused:

 

regards

 

:big_grin: :big_grin:

 

 

[ahlocks]

Heh heh! I'm begining to think that it's all just to ensure that we have something to argue about! ;)

 

 

[Guest Decca]

CRIKEY!

 

BigPete's escaped...

 

From the NES

 

Decca.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just to put a different slant on things, tens of thousands of transmissions have taken place in CTA circuit work where the aircraft identification is the first word when calling the tower.

 

 

[ahlocks]

CTA is not in yet. We'll argue about that later. ;)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea turbs, i smell ya... This whole business of clipping this and that is just triffe.. The radio PTT is probably the simplist device in the coclpit to operate.. You push the little button- talk- release the button..???....now i have to admitt, im a little under the influence.. I passed my CFI test yesterday and have consumed a bottle of .......something alcoholic tonight.... but comon... how hard is it??... im sure most on this site wouldn't have a problem with PTT.. the complexity of logging onto the internet and signing up to this forum surely has proved that most of us posess the fine motor skills and basic intellectual prowess to operate the PTT.

 

....ahhhh...back to my bottle....

 

 

[turboplanner]

There's a bit of stirring going on Motzart, some people may get their kicks out of it, but there's a bit of an effort being made here to create confusion. Trouble is it could result in an accident down the track.

 

 

[Flyingphot]

Lots of interesting views on this thread - I have just gone back to my original post and then followed the thread thru - seems that CASA is very sure, Air Services are very sure, and many of the respondents are very sure about which is correct - pity they are not all sure of the same thing. After all this I am sure of a few things - 1) it doesn't matter which is used if the message gets out - 2) it's good stuff to think about - 3) I probably am just a deaf old fart.

 

Main thing - communicate, communicate, communicate.

 

Cheers

 

Bill

 

 

[ahlocks]

.. I passed my CFI test yesterday

Congratulations!:thumb_up:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thanx ahlocks... im well and truely into this bottle of shampers now...;).. couldn't celebrate last night because of flying today... but nothing on tomorrow...soooo, bottoms up...hehe...(hickup)

 

cheers