Pilots without transponders....... scary stuff

[Guest Brett Campany]

Hey guys, I've recently been told of a close call in Busselton where a large aircraft 5nm south at 2000ft was doing an approach for currency into the airfield when a microlight also called 5nm south at 1900ft.

 

The larger aircraft had been in the area conducting approaches for about 15 minutes and was making the relevant calls on the CTAF when this smaller aircraft made it's first call of 5nm out of YBLN.

 

Now if the microlight had a transponder then the other aircraft would have known about it long before the microlight came within range of the airfield.

 

So in my opinion, I think we should all be using transponders and I know it's going to be one of those discussions that will go on for a long time to come but what are your thoughts on the transponder subject? Should we have them in place as a requirement or leave it to our own discretion?

 

I'm keen to hear your thoughts because really, my opinion is we all should have them as a matter of safety!

 

 

[GraemeK]

Guess there'll be differing views on this, but personally I adopt the AMEX philosophy - never leave home without one!

 

 

[farri]

Anyone, please correct me if I`m wrong.

 

As I understand it, there is no requirement to carry a transponder into a CTAF.

 

There is no requirement to carry a radio into a CTAF but if one is fitted the required radio calls must be made.

 

The issue of weather or not these two items would improve safety is a debatable one.

 

CASSA has seen fit to make these regulations.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Don't get confused. Transponders and Radios don't stop collisions. Have a look at the most recent mid-air's in Australia, they would likely have all been using transponders and radios at the time, but admittedly without TCAS the transponder is not much chop.

 

Precise radio calls in this situation should easily suffice.

 

 

[BLA82]

Don't get confused. Transponders and Radios don't stop collisions. Precise radio calls in this situation should easily suffice.

I agree totally:thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest bateo]

Frank,

 

I believe your correct, CTAF ® is ALL aircraft MUST carry a VHF. Which backs your statement with a general CTAF.

 

There is still many pilots under beliefs that they are not required to make a radio call in a general CTAF vicinity, and in my opinion bad airmanship.

 

Totally aware of where your coming from!

 

 

[Vorticity]

So how much would a transponder and a tcas cost for my drifter? I probably should also buy an epirb as well, a strob light may help as well. To be super safe I might start lobbying casa to get rid of G class airspace all together!

 

I know it may sound ridiculous but are we experiencing some serious creep in what we now think is normal? Radios are now pretty much carried by everyone now; but wasn't always the case. I am sure that tcas is great, but for some this equipment would be worth more than the aircraft they fly.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

So how much would a transponder and a tcas cost for my drifter? I probably should also buy an epirb as well, a strob light may help as well. To be super safe I might start lobbying casa to get rid of G class airspace all together! I know it may sound ridiculous but are we experiencing some serious creep in what we now think is normal? Radios are now pretty much carried by everyone now; but wasn't always the case. I am sure that tcas is great, but for some this equipment would be worth more than the aircraft they fly.

TCAS might cost as much as your a/c has cost already and it would seriously eat into your payload:laugh:

 

A Xpndr (Mode A/C) will cost around $2.5K - more or less.

 

I'm with the people who say this shouldn't be mandatory. I happen to have a Xpndr in the a/c I fly regularly but I don't think it should be mandatory.

 

If I had to make a choice I'd buy a PLB and a Strobe before a Xpndr.

 

Of course if I was wanting to go into CTA then a Xpndr becomes mandatory.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[turboplanner]

Brett: "Hey guys, I've recently been told of a close call in Busselton"

 

For me its a case of horses for courses.

 

In flying out of paddocks or at Country strips only used by light aircraft, why have a transponder?

 

On the other hand where high speed aircraft fitted with TCAS operate, a transponder is an investment equal to about ten lessons.

 

 

[Simonflyer]

Surely with all the technology we have available these days, planes could be fitted with a device kind of like a GPS that lets you know when you are on a collision course with any other aircraft gives both aircraft a simple visual fix as to where the other is..?

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

Brett: "Hey guys, I've recently been told of a close call in Busselton" For me its a case of horses for courses.

 

In flying out of paddocks or at Country strips only used by light aircraft, why have a transponder?

 

On the other hand where high speed aircraft fitted with TCAS operate, a transponder is an investment equal to about ten lessons.

Busselton's a pretty big airport though and they have Fokker F50's and F100's going in there. I know that regular radio calls on the CTAF should suffice but what do you do with pilots who don't make those calls? This seems to be an issue down there and I'd just hate to see what might happen if these kinds of aircraft come together.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sorry Brett, I didn't explain it well enough - Busselton would be the example where a Transponder is critically important for safety

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Couldn't the radio still suffice at Busselton?

 

"Cheetah 5151 joining crosswind for 21 and I have the Fokker in sight."

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sure, but what about "fft,ffft ffft, fft, cross, fffft,ffft, ffft" or the ones who want no radio at all.

 

...and the one you didn't see...

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Sure, but what about "fft,ffft ffft, fft, cross, fffft,ffft, ffft" or the ones who want no radio at all....and the one you didn't see...

Actually Tubz - that was a joke. You guys are so serious.

 

Alright - serious it is.

 

I agree that a transponder might enhance safety to some extent at airports like that, but I don't believe they should be mandatory.

 

Ours is a movement struggling to stay minimal. If we start advocating mandatory equipment, we'll get it faster than you can say "ffft".

 

If you believe it can enhance your particular flying environment, get one and turn it on. I'm quite happy, when flying through Canberra's valley for example, to let Approach know my details, location and intentions. If they ask me to squawk, I say "nil xponder" (it's quicker to say with an "x"), repeat my intention to remain OCTA, and everyone is happy.

 

If I decide I want CTA when we can, I'll get one. (thank you Cybil Fawlty - special subject "the bleeding obvious").

 

Cheers,

 

Ross

 

 

[Yenn]

In a CTAF® we must carry and use a radio. In controlled airspace or class E airspace we must have a transponder.

 

We do not need a transponder in the usual places that ultralights fly, and while some people may think a transponder would make us safer I beg to differ. If you are flying a drifter with a transponder and I am in the Corby, there is no way that I will know anything about your transponder, but I may be travelling at nearly twice your speed, plus I will be blind to anything dead ahead, while in the climb.

 

The powers that be have decided what the risks are and where and are not calling for transponders at every location. If you want to spend the money, by all means do so, but don't expect everyone else to agree with you. In a simp;e aeroplane it is easy to keep your eyes scanning all around.

 

Also has anyone noticed how useless strobes are in daylight. I always see the plane before I see the strobe.

 

 

[facthunter]

Application.

 

IF you have a transponder fitted, It only advantages you with a "Biggy" fitted with TCAS. Any small aircraft will bring you down just as well. Transponder to transponder does not compute. The headlines will not be as big, that is all... MK1 eyeball and good procedures. We have had this discussion before. I agree that mid airs are a risk, a big one. Nev.

 

 

[brilin_air]

It all comes down to if you want to be seen or see other aircraft that mark 1 eyeballs might miss, there is no problem with having no radio etc, but to be safer you can have one, How much is your life worth to you and your loved ones, the more safer we can make ourselves and the air in which we all fly in is really up to the individual.

 

Brian

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Good point lets make Radio's, transponder, ADSB mandatory we should also get rid of two strokes as they fail all the time. We should also think about wrapping the aircraft in cotten balls and maybe fill in the sky so we can't fall from it.

 

Ok maybe a little over the top but some of us like the simple life! Tooling around at 50kts at 500' and flying from paddocks is why I am a member of the RAA. We are all adults and we can make the choice of what we think is exceptable risk. If you want a transponder you can fit one. If you want a radio be my guest but please do not make me fit all this stuff that I don't need for what I want to do. Doing this will make the cost of flying out of alot of peoples range and we will end up just like GA!

 

 

[Guest terry]

all this stuff

 

Guys, if you want all this stuff, if you want to fly in controlled air space, if you want this gadget and that, GO GA

 

 

[turboplanner]

Or just add it to your aircraft to suit the conditions you fly in.

 

 

[farri]

To be super safe I might start lobbying casa to get rid of G class airspace all together!

QUOTE]

 

Off topic but just for the fun of it.

 

I did an interview on camera with our local TV station a while back and the lady interviewer was taking me into the safety aspect of Ultralight flying.

 

I didn`t like the line of questioning so I answered that it was the task of CASA to investigate all accidents and not for me to comment on any accident.

 

Finaly I replied "Flying an Ultralight isn`t as safe as lying in bed on a sunday morning but it`s much safer than driving a on our roads", and to their credit, that statement is what was used on TV.

 

Frank,

 

PS. I couldn`t help myself. ;)

[Adrian Lewer]

I agree with most here. I am at the middle end of the scale, trying to get my first A/C flying. for some people they can only afford a drifter or thruster and are happy as pigs in mud to be able to be one of us special people who can enjoy aviation, and those who can afford it are still happy to fly these in this manner as it is only them and the A/C and it is a form of freedom. A thruster without a radio and Xponder is just as safe as a jabiru with Xponder and radio.

 

It is us as pilots who make the flying safe, correct visual checks and safe correct flying at the correct altitudes Etc will make it all safe. But I will say when aircraft like this are being flown common sense should be used and not flown in areas where fokkers (I got the joke slarti) or other "larger" A/C are being flown.

 

Lets not loose sight of what the Raa stands for. If you want the mod conns go GA

 

Just my thoughts.

 

 

[skeptic36]

My view,

 

It doesn't matter what you are doing there is a degree of risk involved, the risk has to be balanced with everthing else associated with the activity, economics, fun, convenience etc.

 

I think the powers that be have a pretty good balance at the moment ie. where they perceive the risk warrants it a transponder is required the same with a radio.

 

I do like the radio though, today there was a Gazelle heading into my area it was a little smoky and I never saw him once but I was always confident that we weren't in conflict because of his excellent use of the radio and I hope he felt the same way.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Skyhog]

I've been within about 300m of another aircraft twice since easter.Once at 500' agl during a joyflight showing relo's the farm and the other whilst on climb through 3000' amsl after a heading change in a nav comp with my club.The first was coming almost head on and the second came from left to right and was also on climb from a different airfield than me.Each time my radio and transponder were in use but guess what...no warning!(der)The only way to fly safely IS to look through the perspex.The only reason I saw these aircraft is because I do keep a good lookout but if I'd been looking at a map or GPS(as we all have to from time to time),I may have missed seeing them completely.So do keep a good lookout reguardless of what gadgets you may have on board.

 

PS.No the thruster doesn't have a transponder,I was in a GA aircraft.