Pilots without transponders....... scary stuff

[Tracktop]

Also has anyone noticed how useless strobes are in daylight. I always see the plane before I see the strobe.

So if strobes are useless in the daytime is there a better option - is a flashing orange light or something better?

 

Landing lights when overcast seem effective.

 

To be seen visually is good :big_grin: and anything that helps is a bonus.

 

As to fast low flying military's go - not sure but I would think they would have other systems to assist them in avoiding us, after all my guess is they need to know about incomings.

 

I assume missiles don't have xponders. :hittinghead: but I could have guessed wrong about that too.

 

Ray

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

OK so the majority have said "lets not make transponders necessary" and I agree with that because we don't want to end up like GA.

 

So how about this then, how do we educate our pilots to be on the ball a little more about getting on the radio and announcing where we are as required?

 

I'd say there's about 15% to maybe 20% of pilots who neglect radio calls, wether it be they forget or think they shouldn't need to, how do we get the point across to the minority to get on that radio?

 

 

[mAgNeToDrOp]

I don't think transponders should be made mandatory, not sure it will make much difference, there is no substitute for looking out the window and communicating accurately of position/intentions..

 

But for those that want the option these PCAS systems appear to be an option (anyone had any experience with them?)

 

Zaon Flight Systems - Home

 

Ok they will only warn you if the other aircraft has a transponder but they are relatively small/lightweight (size of a deck of cards apparently) and not as expensive as active systems like TCAS.. and can be integrated with your gps for instance.. curious if anyone has seen or used these before

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Isn't it true that these devices only work when there is radar coverage nearby?

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

So if strobes are useless in the daytime is there a better option - is a flashing orange light or something better?Landing lights when overcast seem effective.

To be seen visually is good :big_grin: and anything that helps is a bonus.

 

[snip]

 

Ray

G'day Ray,

 

this is an area that we've talked about somewhere on here before. The US military looked at the effectiveness of strobes in daylight and dim light. They found that you couldn't make them bright enough to make much of a difference in daylight. Orange light is less visible over distance than white...

 

Having said that at close range the strobe may just be the thing that gets your attention. The human eye is programmed to see movement and to see dimmer light better peripherally. The strobe qualifies as "movement" and it may just be the thing you catch out of the corner of your eye.

 

You can test the dimmer light peripherally by looking into the night sky. You will see a dim star slightly off centre but when you centre on it it tends to disappear.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Yenn]

What happens if you fit a transponder and then CASA decrees that we all have to have ADSB?

 

When I was flying GA they didn't have transponders in the planes I flew, and I flew in some of the busiest airspace in Australia. Moorabbin, Melbourne Essenden which was the main airport before Tullamarine, Townsville etc. Only had one close call and the other plane probably didn't have a transponder.

 

 

[farri]

Isn't it true that these devices only work when there is radar coverage nearby?

As I understand it,a transponder is a device that is used in a radar enviroment.

 

It identifies the aircraft,it`s position,speed and height, basicly, all the information required by an air trafic controler.

 

Frank.

 

 

[mAgNeToDrOp]

My understanding is that Transponders respond when they receive a signal from any active interrogation device like Radar or TCAS, These PCAS devices can pick up transponder signals and warn you of this traffic up to six miles away - or interpret signal from transponders in mode S (broadcasting). So they will work in a non radar environment if transponder is mode S ?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Farri.. Class A in a radar environment is from 18000- 60000, and VFR flight is not permitted. Class C and D are the ones i think your are thinking of..;)

 

 

[Guest brentc]

My understanding is that Transponders respond when they receive a signal from any active interrogation device like Radar or TCAS, These PCAS devices can pick up transponder signals and warn you of this traffic up to six miles away - or interpret signal from transponders in mode S (broadcasting). So they will work in a non radar environment if transponder is mode S ?

This sounds almost. TCAS interrogates whereas PCAS receives the radar return........

 

Frank, I was referring to PCAS / TCAS. PCAS doesn't work unless you are in radar coverage as the PCAS receives the signal retun when the radar hits the other aircraft's transponder and alerts you to its' presence. The other one, TCAS actually interrogates the transponder for a return.

 

Decided to google it: I was right, go wiki.

 

Differences between PCAS and TCAS or TIS

 

PCAS is passive, portable, and much less expensive than traditional aircraft detection systems, such as TCAS, L3 Skywatch and Ryan TCAD. TCAS is an active system transmitting interrogation pulses and monitoring responses. TIS requires the use of ground based mode S sensor sites which will then transmit traffic information to mode S client systems. Several US sensor sites are scheduled for closure and the TIS service is generally unavailable in Canada. TCAS operates with more precision than PCAS but is also significantly more expensive.[1] [2] [3]A very well know general aviation organization completed an evaluation of the PCAS XRX system to demonstrate the capabilities.[4]

 

 

[farri]

Many thanks Brentc and others.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I do have a transponder but don't think they should be mandatory at all. We are required to keep a listening watch if operating with a radio, which basically means monitor the appropriate frequency.

 

I do not hesitate to make VFR position calls, and do often, if I think there could be conflicting traffic around, but I do a lot of frequency monitoring also to form a picture of whats going on.

 

The one that hits you is the one you won't see coming, so there is no excuse for not keeping a good look out the window, wether your in a MK 4 bugsmasher or 737....

 

 

[theoy]

Hi

 

for more info follow this link : https://www.zaon.aero/content/view/52/45/

 

Cheers

 

Theo

 

 

[Admin]

or here:

 

Clear Prop - The Pilot's Discount Store - Health & Safety :: PCAS Systems

 

 

[Mazda]

There's one thing not being mentioned here, which is that TCAS is not mandatory for some RPT aircraft. What is the point of mandating transponders for us, which would probably cost $4,000 each fitted, plus scheduled inspections, when the airlines who make money don't have to pay to fit TCAS?

 

Don't assume everything has TCAS.

 

Don't assume everyone with a transponder has remembered to turn it on.

 

Don't assume everyone with a radio has the right frequency, or the correct radio selected, or that the radio is working (how would you know if it had failed?)

 

So don't assume that everyone at ANY airport has a radio.

 

You can mandate as many pieces of equipment as you like (which all cost us money), and you can mandate hundreds of radio calls for every aircraft, but it doesn't mean people will always comply. People make mistakes, and we must expect that.

 

Make your calls, if you don't get an expected response (AFRU, tower, other aircraft) check your radio, but you will only know your radio is working when something replies.

 

In any case, remember always to look out the window.

 

 

[Guest Walter Buschor]

I don't think that a transponder will prevent accidents or whether it is even necessary.

 

I do think it is absolutely necessary to USE your radio wether you use it correctly or not. I believe that many pilots don't use the radio because they think they don't use it professionally enough. I for one don't care wether or not a call is made professionally or not as long as it is made at all. The more we communicate the better.

 

In controlled airspace the same applies with the use of a transponder. Even there the transponder does not negate radio communication to the best of one's ability.

 

just remember that a bad call is better than no call at all

 

safe flying

 

the grey nomad

 

 

[Guest ROM]

The world wide gliding movement has been through all of this close flying and collision avoidance debate a few years ago.

 

In most gliding competitions an international standards FLARM [ Flight Alarm ] is now mandatory.

 

Gliders of course often fly within a hundred metres or so of one another in thermals with fast moving gliders pulling into thermals at speed and running at cruising speeds of often over 100 knots in the modern high performance gliders between thermals.

 

At which speed they will still be running at glide ratios of 30 to one or more.

 

Also gliders are a darn sight harder to see than your convential power aircraft so the FLARM was invented to overcome this problem.

 

It is simple and small with both auditory alarms and a visual indication on where to look for the other aircraft which of course must also be FLARM equipped for the system to work.

 

It still needs visual ID of the other near vicinity aircraft but certainly in Australia FLARM systems are already credited by the pilots involved with avoiding a number of near misses and a couple of head on potential collisions which is the precise area where the gliders are the almost impossible to see while closing at 200 to 250 knots.

 

Radio traffic is just not a viable proposition in these circumstances as with say 40 or 50 gliders operating in the same competition area, the radio traffic warnings become completely impracticable on a big continuous scale.

 

Radio is used and used a lot but there are real practical limits to the maximum use of radio.

 

FLARM range for gliders is a kilometre or so.

 

FLARM site; Flarm - Homepage

 

There is also an Australian built version from Swift Avionics.

 

Looks like that, as usual, power aviation is reinventing the very expensive wheel all over again with a whole new set of incompatible systems.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

my thoughts

 

Having read this thread, I agree that everyones' points are quite valid, and disagree with no-one. however, the use of transponders is something that should seriously be considered if you operate in an area frequented by TCAS equipped RPT, RFDS or jet training (ie Bussellton). remember the memonic...aviate-navigate-communicate and maintain a listening watch if radio equipped because I would hardly think that the 5nm call by the heavy going into Busso would have been his first! :)

 

 

[HEON]

Transponders? I personally think a good idea.

 

Leaving the requirement for controlled airspace out of it, they do make you visable. Only have to see a couple of F111's at around 500ft and 500 odd knots to think what a LSA would be like as a nose extention!

 

Last week returning from South Australia had a radio failure(no transmit/receaving OK). Transponder to 7600. Airfield in SE Qld I was heading to had been notified I was inbound well before arrivial by Air Svc. When I spoke to them they said they had notified other aircraft of my location, track and probable desternation. The weather was not too flash and in conversation with them I said another RAA aircraft with me had been helping me to avoid the storms as he had the weather radar on his phone. They did not know he was there...no transponder!

 

 

[poteroo]

Busselton and Bunbury share the same CTAF frequency of 126.7 - and this accounts for the mishmash of radio calls over there. It's not uncommon for most of the multicom traffic from out in the wheatbelt to push over the local traffic calls, and it becomes really difficult for all the faster, and higher, traffic letting down to do approaches on the Busselton NDB.

 

There is a request already with CASA to allocate a new, discrete frequency for the BSN/BUN area. Having had a seperate frequency, (128.75), in Albany since last August - we can vouch for the improvement in sorting out traffic. Our students now know what is traffic, whereas before, they were hearing the Bunbury, Busselton, Manjimup and all the wheatbelt traffic as well.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Mazda]

Transponders are good but I don't think they should be mandatory in Class G. I think if we mandate transponders, we should also mandate it for the airlines to have TCAS in the smaller airline aircraft, otherwise they can't see us anyway, transponder or no transponder. They have more money than we do.

 

For a controller to see your transponder, yes there needs to be secondary radar coverage, and the controller you are talking to needs to have access to that. So if you are in the class C or D over Albury, remember the controller does NOT have you on radar. They controller doesn't have radar so you will be separated procedurally.

 

They are great in that you get access to more airspace, you can get flight following, and TCAS equipped aircraft can see you. I'd fit one if I had a a few extra thousand sitting around - but I don't. They are not cheap to fit!

 

 

[Mazda]

Very, very true cficare!

 

 

[skydog]

Pilots without radios..scary stuff.

 

What kind of dumb ass flies without a radio? Radios should be made compulsory rather than Transponders. A necessary tool to be considerate of others in the sky.

 

We do have to keep our eyeballs keenly peeled for the tightarse in the circuit trying to avoid paying landing charges thats for sure.

 

But on the other hand, can too many gadgets be an issue?

 

Sort of like driving a car whilst talking on the mobile phone plus at the same time watching and listening to the GPS road map, with some hot sheila with a miniskirt sitting beside you..

 

 

[Mazda]

Skydog the problem is that you can mandate that we each have 10 radios, it won't make any difference.

 

The compliance issue isn't because people don't have radios, it is because radios are on the wrong frequency, or pilots have the wrong radio selected, or the radio has failed. People make mistakes and equipment fails.

 

How would you know if your radio had failed? Most likely you wouldn't know. The only way you can know your radio is working, and on the correct frequency, and readable is if there is someone there to hear you. This is why ICAO only mandates radio for Class D and above, meaning there is actually a controller there to acknowledge your call.

 

That's why many non-controlled airports overseas have a unicom operator, and why we have AFRUs at some airports. True, they are not perfect either, but they are better than no confirmation at all.

 

Unless there is some sort of third party confirmation, mandating radios can't possibly work.

 

For the same reason, it would be foolish to assume every aircraft flying in "mandatory" radio airspace had a radio working and on the correct frequency. The ATSB website is full of incidents to prove this isn't the case.

 

So look out of the window for all traffic, not just the ones you hear.

 

 

[Mazda]

The too many gadget thing has merit too - or reliance on too many gadgets. TCAS/ADS-B in is pretty useless in busy areas, there are too many signals. ADS-B in is being thrown around for collision avoidance in the circuit. I can't imagine pilots flying around the circuit with their eyes on a screen in the cockpit. Remember it won't show all the aircraft anyway and has no audio signal (there's some sort of TCAS patent issue), you have to look at the screen.

 

All of these gadgets can add to safety, but if people only rely on them without looking out of the window it could be less safe.