Armour-all on Dacron?

[pudestcon]

G'day Guys,

 

I was reading in the latest Thruster Support International Bulletin a reference to using Armor-all on dacron to achieve a glossy, lower drag result. Has anybody used this technique and is it ok to use on dacron?

 

Thanks,

 

Pud

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Pud,

 

I have only seen this done once at a car show where the aircraft was the backdrop.

 

It took a very long time after applying the Armor-all to rub off and get a good shine and later in the day you could see fine dust lines where the edges of well rubbed areas meet poorly rubbed areas, so maybe a lot of hard work to generate a dust magnet?

 

If it is practical to do and not effect the fabric it may well be worthwhile and i may consider it too.

 

Bob.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I'd be reulctant to use Armour all on anything of importance to appearance or safety. Armour all is one of those products where once you apply it you seem to have to keep re-applying it to achieve the same finish and it's quite powerful, you only have to see what it does to plastic to realise this.

 

 

[Guest Decca]

Hi Pud.

 

Notwithstanding advice already posted, I know I've seen Tony's (TOSG) comments re Armour-all elsewhere here - ask him.

 

Also Ian has a great product in the clear prop pilot shop for fabric surfaces. Forget what it's called, but is easy to apply, easy to wipe off, & produces a clean, slippery surface. I don't know if it's suitable for Dacron, or what it's solar protection is like. Ask him too.

 

Decca.

 

 

[pudestcon]

Thanks for all the replies,

 

My original thoughts ws not to use a product such as armour-all and the comments above reinforce that - especially the dust problem as I'll be based ina rural situation with a dirt airfield.

 

I'll check out the shop here for the product you speak of Decca.

 

Pud

 

 

[Guest AVU]

Hi Pud.

 

The use of armaroul-all has been tried, and the above comments have shown that it is a time consuming job. I've found that it will protect against U/V rays, but at a cost of degrading the stitches the fabric is sown up with. At the expence involved with the purchase of armoural and the quantity required, it seems to me that the best policy would be to fly your A/C and when finished flying to keep it out of the sun.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers.

 

Steve.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Before armourall came along i used "scotchguard" on my hang gliders, no problems there but thats going back 25 years or so.

 

the dust problem may be static induced by the method of application.

 

ozzie

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

In the two Thrusters I've owned I've used armourall on the fabric and it has brought them up looking very nice. Once it has dried the dust doesn't stick to it and it seems to last almost a year (mine doesn't fly that much) It took about two litres of the stuff and a couple of hours with two coats making sure not to miss any spots but once you stand back you can see where you have missed anyway!

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

[pudestcon]

Thanks again for the replies here,

 

I'm of the opinion that the benefits (shiny surface?) would not be great enough to risk fabric/stitching degradationthumb_down (understatement!!) I was hoping for a product that would enhance and protect, indeed extend the life of the fabric. I couldn't find the product Decca spoke of in the shop here. AVU's advice seems the best - keep undercover!! After all this, I haven't got an aircraft yet but will have by the end of the year so I'm currently sourcing materials to build a hanger. How's that Thruster coming along Steve?;)

 

Pud

 

 

[drifter_driver]

303 uv spray

 

303 is another good uv spray which does'nt seem to attract any dust but have to be applied every 6 months to keeep it effective. 1 leter will give you two coats on a drifter.

 

also does'nt add much weight to the aircraft either

 

 

 

[hihosland]

I used 303 protectant on my Skyranger then left in in a hangar while I was OS for 6 weeks last winter. When I came back my aircraft was covered in mold/fungus wherever the 303 had been applied and the un treated Thruster in the same hangar that also hadn't moved for the 6 weeks was clear of mold.

 

in my experience it is fungus fodder

 

Davidh

 

 

[drifter_driver]

I hav,nt had any fungas issues with 303 for last 6 years of its use. I wash the aircraft, dry it then apply 303 wiping it with a cloth and leave it out in the sun to dry for few hours. may be the hangar I am using is not conducive enough for fungas (its well aerated-no doors)

 

 

[Vorticity]

I had the opposite experience with a drifter. I cleaned the skins, dried them out thoroughly and treated the uper surfaces only. I came back after a month or so away with work to find spots of mould underneath the wing; where I had not treated with 303, and no mould on the top.

 

What I did find was pigeon crap on the wing. Thankfully because I had treated them it was easy to get off. I ran over one by accident while leaving the strip so I guess we are even.

 

 

[bilby54]

Hi Pud,

 

Tony and TOSG have been at this for a long time and given their credibility within the flying community, I would doubt that you would get a bum steer from them.

 

Give Tony a call and get the good oil from him

 

 

[Tracktop]

Just spotted this when looking for other stuff - Cheers

Dexter

 

Scroll down on the page when loaded

 

AeroShop - Pilot supplies & aircraft equipment

Has anyone used this stuff - I have been contemplating getting some for a while now.

 

Ray

 

 

[Admin]

Sorry guys for not responding earlier but I have been down with the flu this week.

 

Aeroshield is no longer available - there is a previous post about it and Aeroshop selling it some time ago - read from post #6 at http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/anything-aviation-sale/6927-aeroshop-still-operating.html

 

The product that Decca mentioned is called Composiclean which I have in stock but I haven't had the time to put it into the new shop as yet. There is a wash and a wax which are both completely pH neutral and an incredible product - I will put it in the shop over the weekend.

 

Hope this helps - and again sorry for the delay in responding!

 

 

[Tracktop]

Ian - Do they offer UV protection?

 

Get well

 

Ray

 

 

[xair1159]

A good number of people (including me) used 303 on dacron over here in Ireland/UK and ended up with mould problems. Might be OK in a warm dry climate, but I wouldn't recommend it if there is any real humidity around. I have the photos to prove it if required.

 

PITA to remove the black spots, the local agent for 303 advised Milton baby bottle sterilising fluid diluted 4:1 in warm water and left on for just long enough for the spots to disappear - about 5 minutes. Rinse very thoroughly with plain water, drip dry in the breeze/sun and then fly it for a final blow dry. Did the trick, had the a/c for 3 years after with no ill effects or fabric problems.

 

Nick

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

Hmmmm! I have no axe to grind here - just try to help people along.

 

I have used armourall (and recommended it) for years. I have had no grizzles from any TOSG member at all. This is the bare bones:

 

1. I doubt it does much for UV protection on Dacron - maybe a little. Degrading the stitching - Duh! Do not get confused with Ultralam where a new form of stitching had to be invented because the stitching wears out before the fabric. Base advice is as given above - keep out of the sun as much as possible.

 

2. Armour All will give you instantly better performance once on. But it is a time consuming job and I use three coats over all surfaces so you need the best part of a week to do a good job. It slicks the skins, increases rate of climb no end (important if you have a 503) and improves the glide.

 

3. Armour All is now more expensive to use as they have stopped selling it in bulk - but in my opinion is worth the money and the labour.

 

4. Possibly a big issue is the power it has to restore colour and faded Dacron. This can be important on resale with skins that look knackered but are actually OK. Some Dacron colours fade within weeks of purchase. A couple of coats of A/All can add a couple of grand to the appearance of the aircraft.

 

Aye

 

Tony

 

 

[Tomo]

My instructor uses Armor Oil on the Drifter.... Makes it look a million dollars, and it would improve performance I'm sure...:thumb_up:

 

 

[jordy]

A good number of people (including me) used 303 on dacron over here in Ireland/UK and ended up with mould problems. Might be OK in a warm dry climate, but I wouldn't recommend it if there is any real humidity around. I have the photos to prove it if required. PITA to remove the black spots, the local agent for 303 advised Milton baby bottle sterilising fluid diluted 4:1 in warm water and left on for just long enough for the spots to disappear - about 5 minutes. Rinse very thoroughly with plain water, drip dry in the breeze/sun and then fly it for a final blow dry. Did the trick, had the a/c for 3 years after with no ill effects or fabric problems.

 

Nick

PITA ??? nick what is pita.I've had a similalar experience with the 303. Loved the look and the enhanced performance on the Drifter (503) (and i'm a big bugga!!) but a week later all the yellow section of the sails had black spots everywhere.............. thought they where there to stay until i read your post.

 

Tony, armour-all or U/Lam in a high humidity area?

 

 

[xair1159]

Jordy,

 

PITA = pain in the ass, not a type of bread.

 

Usual caveat on the Milton, it worked for me, but use at your own risk. I diluted the Milton 4:1 in warm water, brushed it on an area with a soft bristle car wash brush, watched until the black spots faded which took about 5 minutes and then rinsed off with a hose. Repeated until all the skins were done and then thoroughly rinsed the whole thing CAREFULLY using a pressure washer with the nozzle set for a wide fan, not a concrete cutting jet, and held well away from the surface. Let the breeze and sun dry it and make sure no water trapped anywhere, re-lubricate any moving parts or hinges before flying it. As I said, no problems or significant fabric deterioration in 3 years afterwards.

 

If you search on the Xair forum there was a long thread about it at the time and my photos are filed.

 

Nick

 

 

[pudestcon]

Tony,

 

Is Ultralam a separate product to Armour All or one of the Armour-All products? I Googled them both but only came up with Armour All.... No Ultralam.

 

Pud

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

Hi Pud,

 

(I got your email as well).

 

I stuffed up in the post above and continued referring to U/Lam when I should have been saying A/All. I have made an edit correction.

 

Ultralam is a kind of plastic film or cloth- I believe first developed for racing yachts. It arrives glossy and allegedly has about seven times the UV resistance that Dacron has. Hence my comment above about the stitching giving up before the fabric.

 

Kev Mitchel resolved this one by developing a stitching made (I think) of Kevlar and that fixed it!

 

Ultralam skins are now virtually standard in the UK Thrusters (but the skins are/were made in Oz. They were also optional on the Vision 600s.

 

They are very good skins but note that they cost over $1,000 more than the Dacron - but if you get seven times the life then they are cheaper in the long run.

 

Another thing to note is that the U/Lam colours are much paler and do not have the 'solid' colour that Dacron has (at least initially) so have a good look at a quantity of the material before selecting. Red and Blue comes out OK but Black, White and Yellow are quite pale and wishy washy.

 

A quick note on dust comments made above. I have not long done my current T300 with three coats of A/All and I have NEVER had a dust problem using the stuff. I doubt that I would have cared if I had as I got the usual extra 200 fpm climb rate out of an aircraft that I was having a drag challenge with anyway.

 

What the A/All is doing is reducing skin friction. Dacron is very draggy and there is a lot of surface area on a rag and bone aircraft - especially a T500 with the additional fuselage sock area.

 

An example will illustrate the point. In WW2 when serious development went on with night fighters - they painted them black for night camouflage. Then they painted them matt black to reduce reflections. It cost the Mosquito 20 knots off its top speed - so they went back to gloss and got the speed back!

 

Aye

 

Tony

 

 

[pudestcon]

Thanks for the clarification Tony, all is clear now.

 

But which Armour All product??? The Protectant range has "Original" and 'New Car" (amongst others), or is it the Wax and Polish range which has "High Performance Wax and Polish"?

 

Cheers,

 

Pud