Pulling the stick back after landing?

[moy71]

Because I land on grass strips 9 times out of 10, I find that maintaining the plane on the runway centreline is very forgiving. The friction caused by the wheels landing on grass is sufficient to slow me down and swerving rarely occurs if at all.

 

This plus the fact that from early on, I was taught by my instructor after landing on grass to pull back on the stick all the way once firmly on the ground (soft field landing) progressively as the plane slows down.

 

Well the other day I had a rare chance of landing on a hard surface runway (bitumen) and I did not pull back on the stick at all as I would normally do on grass runways. I had a devil of a time from keeping on the centreline. In fact I was doing snake bends and swerving all over the place.

 

My question therefore is this: on hard surface runways, should I be pullling the stick back (even if a little) once the wheels are planted firmly on the ground? My thinking is that I should. Thereby relying more on the rudder to maintain runway alignment rather than the nosewheel - at least until the aircraft slows down sufficiently enough so that swerving no longer occurs.

 

Comments anyone please!

 

ps..

 

I realise that there is the possibility that my pedal use may also be heavy-handed (or footed) as again back on grass medium deflection only has small effects.

 

pps..

 

Jabiru LSA is the plane I am referring to.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes.

 

You are probably doing a lot of skidding on the grass, where the bitumen is grabbing the tread.

 

Eugene Reid maintains the Jab steers much better on the landing roll with back stick.

 

The trick is to do it as the mains touch, without touching down with too much nose up. Get an instructor to ride you for a few circuits until you are comfortable

 

 

[Yenn]

What you are doing is wheeling it on and by the look of it you are too fast for the plane to stop flying, therefore left with little rudder control and not having a wheel on the ground to steer with.

 

Keep the nose up until it stops flying and the tail will let the nose wheel down to allow steering.

 

 

[moy71]

Is this holding-the-stick-back applicable to all planes or only to the Jabiru range?

 

 

[moy71]

... therefore left with little rudder control and not having a wheel on the ground to steer with...

Actually from what I gather, the nose wheel is in fact on the ground and that's the cause of the problem I was having: even little pedal movement goes a long way and I ended up snaking/swerving.

 

However as you and Turboplanner has suggested, I will definetly try pulling on the stick back on landing (as though I was landing on grass again). I recall that on touchdown, i simply let the stick go to the neutral position too early.

 

 

[facthunter]

weight on nose wheel.

 

It is a good principle to relieve the nosewheel of weight generally. This can only be done by a download on the tailplane. . If you hold-off during the landing flare you will accomplish this in the proper way, safely. Most "ultralight"aircraft have flimsy nosewheels that are easily damaged and If you land with most of the weight on the nosewheel, (ie too fast) one day soon you will come to grief. Practice initially holding the nosewheel off the surface and steering with rudder only. If this is a little too demanding in concept, do it with an instructor. Nev.

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

Tyre profile

 

What is the tyre profile on the nose wheel?

 

See post #12 by BrentC in the thread What is wrong with the jab? in the Jabiru Aircraft User group.

 

"The problem is the 'square' nose wheel which is the standard 13x5x6 tyre as supplied by Jabiru. Lowering the nose wheel at high speed is like riding on the back of a poddy-calf (flipping back and forth over the backbone if you know what that is like)".

 

 

[turboplanner]

I'm a poddy calf riding champion from way back, but Moy, I'd definitely put in some time with a Jab instructor rather than try to do it by correspondence.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I always treat the nose wheel like it's fragile, no matter what aircraft. In 90% of cases this is the correct thing to do, however in aircraft with more torque effect (larger engines, such as the J230), raising the nose prematurely can result in the aircraft altering course in the direction of the torque steer. This is usually overcome as speed increases and the control surfaces become more effective. The remedy is to keep the nose wheel in firm contact with the ground, but that being said back-pressure would still definitely be applied as the slightest addition of back-pressure will pretty much instantly solve the problem.

 

 

[Guest drizzt1978]

I must admit I don't let the stick go back to neutral to quick, or else i end up with steering problems and general unsettling behavior.

 

 

[Tomo]

Is this holding-the-stick-back applicable to all planes or only to the Jabiru range?

You generally hold the stick back on tail wheel acft to give better ground handling when taxiing... puts weight down on the wheel so it makes it turn, rather than just skid... obviously you get the tail up on take off as soon as you can, so then all you've got is rudder to keep you going straight...

 

If you do a nice three point tail wheel landing, you generally have the stick all the way back anyway on touch down, so you basically keep it there.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea mate, pretty sound advice being given so far.. With the jab, ya hafta fight the temptation to pole forward AT ALL on the landing. Hold her off as long as you can before touchdown, and then as the nose starts to drop keep applying more back pressure, basically try to keep the nose up, eventually you will run out of elevator authority and the nose wheel will settle nicely. Keep the stick back even with brakes applied (especially the 160).. Have fun

 

 

[moy71]

I must admit I don't let the stick go back to neutral to quick, or else i end up with steering problems and general unsettling behavior.

Wow, this fits exactly what I experienced.

 

 

[moy71]

Will practice more landings on the hard surface this weekend. So far all the replies have been unanimous: stick back right through until the nose drops.

 

Thank you everyone, I will update this thread with the results on my next bitumen landing. Will also video it for those interested as well.

 

cheers.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Nah, keep it back untill you park it, (unless your taxiing in strong winds).. Especially after the nose wheel comes down...thats when ya want the least amount of weight possible on the nose wheel.. If you relax back pressure after the nose wheel comes down then ya right back where ya started..

 

cheers

 

 

[moy71]

Nah, keep it back untill you park it, (unless your taxiing in strong winds).. Especially after the nose wheel comes down...thats when ya want the least amount of weight possible on the nose wheel.. If you relax back pressure after the nose wheel comes down then ya right back where ya started..cheers

Makes even more sense.

 

What a great forum this site is :)

 

 

[Guest ROM]

Wear light shoes or light boots, not farm boots;[ personal testimony,] or definitely not thongs.

 

Rest heels on the floor and try and move rudder pedals by flexing ankles.

 

Not always possible as it depends on the rudder pedal configuration and location but reduces or stops the rudder overshoot and much meandering around of the aircraft that occurs when the whole leg starts moving.

 

 

[Whack777]

I fly an LSA all the time and there is a huge difference between grass and bitumen. Grass is much more forgiving if you’re out with your directional control. The tyres grab on the bitumen and bite in. As the others have said keep moving the stick back as you land (keeping the pressure off the nose wheel).... but be right on top of your rudder control and to keep it going straight..... as soon as you see any tendency for the nose to move one way or the other apply rudder to stop it. Talk to your instructor... you'll be on top of it in no time.

 

 

[Guest Pioneer200]

Just make sure the plane is at correct landing speed as you start pullng the stick back.

 

Do it with a little to much speed on and you will balloon up above the runway with fast decaying airspeed and be in an awkward situation.

 

You don't want to be 10 ft above the runway,high nose attitude, about to stall, with little options left!!

 

A good landing needs a good approach(speed spot on)

 

 

[Metzenes]

Keep your nose at the right pitch

 

Yep, good to keep speed under control when landing but I think the most important thing to do if you want to avoid a high stall when you are landing is to keep looking out the front and keep the attitude of the plane correct. If you point the nose in the air enough to wash off speed but not enough to increase altitude the plane will settle on the ground then the trick is to keep moving the stick back slowly so it does not take off again.

 

I mean, I am not expert but it works for me.

 

 

[pudestcon]

What about the technique of a little forward stick once the wheels have touch down to reduce angle of attack and therefore lift. If done at the correct airspeed then the aircraft cannot fly anymore. This technique is useful in a tail dragger like the Thruster with continual forward stick movement as the rollout continues slower and slower. The object here is to keep the tail flying and off the ground as long as possible. Once slow enough for the tail to settle on the ground then pull the stick all the way back to increase the positive feel of the tailwheel on the ground and hence full direction control.

 

For your consideration.

 

Pud

 

 

[motzartmerv]

We are talkin about tricycle u/c here... try that in a jab and you'll be up for a new prop and whatever else ya damage..;)

 

 

[bushpilot]

...... Keep the stick back even with brakes applied (especially the 160).. Have fun

Hey Motz. Why do you say?

 

 

[pudestcon]

I take your point Motz, in fact stick back technique is exactly what I use in the Gazelle and I realise that to stay strictly on topic then I am out of order seeing as how Moy71 specifically asked about tricycle undercarriage aircraft. Just thought I'd put a different perspective into the mix which is why I mentioned "taildragger" and "For your consideration". Moy71 asks in post #4 if this is applicable to all aircraft. It's not if you talk about taildraggers, especially when wheeled on. The technigue of stick back is most useful when at the stall when the wheels touch down but what about if the wing is still flying and a little above the stall? Will the increased angle of attack caused by the stick back technigue cause more lift and the aircraft to fly again? Again... for your consideration if I'm not too far off topic.

 

This is a good thread I'm finding very interesting... It's all good:laugh:

 

Pud

 

 

[Guest DBT]

Moy71 asks in post #4 if this is applicable to all aircraft. Pud

I've been taught to hold off as long as possible after round out. The idea is "Don't let it land" This way you touch down at the lowest possible speed. Maintain back pressure until the nose touches down. What you do after that depends on the type of ACFT.

 

Some tricycle ACFT do not require back pressure once the nosewheel is on the ground, as the CG is close enough to the main wheels that there is minimal weight on the nose wheel.

 

On others (eg. C150 and similar "heavies" ;)) back pressure is recommended, even when taxying, to minimise weight and thus stress on the nose wheel.