Pulling the stick back after landing?

[motzartmerv]

Thats a good question Pud.. Very few people actually stall a tricycle acft onto the ground during the landing, but rather touch down with a minimal amount of flying speed.. So the wing is still flying at the point of touchdown.. Yes, as the Angle of attack increases so does the lift, but the lift is increasing at a slightly lower rate then the acft is descending, hence a nice smooth touchdown.. Remember that as the lift increases so too does the drag (induced drag) which slows the acft down.. The lift formula (CL 1/2PV2S) shows that the lift is increased by the speed squared, so to its decreased by the speed squared, so if you double the speed you quadrouple the lift, but if you half the speed you loose more then half the lift...ya see what im saying, the induced drag slowing the acft down a small amount has a large effect on the amount of lift being produced at that point..

 

All that being said... if you come back to heavily on the stick, yes, it will balloon..;);)

 

Chris, i was saying to keep the stick back to keep weight off the nosewheel.. The 160 has a nasty habbit of nosewheel shimmy if you don't...

 

 

[Yenn]

I hadn't realised that landing a nose wheeler could be so difficult. Will stick to the tailwheelers.

 

 

[Tomo]

I hadn't realised that landing a nose wheeler could be so difficult. Will stick to the tailwheelers.

Everything is only as difficult as you can make it!

 

 

[Metzenes]

Calculation

 

If stall speed is 43knots and taxiing speed is a fast walking pace say 4.3knots then the extra lift (even with flaps extended) would be 1 over (43/4.3)squared by my calculations - that is 1/100 the weight of the aircraft. So I would say if you taxi at a reasonable speed it makes no difference at all to have the stick back.

 

I could be wrong.

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

(snip) So I would say if you taxi at a reasonable speed it makes no difference at all to have the stick back. (snip)

The prop-wash over the elevator has a very much greater effect than the airspeed while taxiing.

 

Remember also that if you are back-tracking when taxiing, then you'll usually have a tail wind.

 

 

[Guest Biggles Jr]

hey..

 

I am flying a Grumman AA5B tiger, Cessna 150 aerobat and a Skyfox Gazelle on a mix of grass and sealed runways... 75% of my landings are on sealed runways.. I have been taught to land the plane and keep pulling the stick back further and further keeping the nose wheel off the ground for the longest possible time which makes the stress on the nosewheel as minimal as possible... by the time the nosewheel touches the stick should be as far back as possible... its each to their own depending on how you learn but i hope this helps.. :)

 

 

[facthunter]

Weight transfer, directional stability etc.

 

A prolonged hold -off was commonly taught . As an example it was considered that if you got the stall warning horn to just come on with a Cessna as the wheels touched then you had it about right. This technique is not appropriate in gusty conditions especially in very light planes as nose high and slow is not good. Well it is OK as you are nearly on the ground you might say... True but in that situation you can balloon rapidly and end up at 20' and little airspeed, making a good controlled landing or a go-round difficult.

 

So apply an appropriate technique to the situation you find your self in.

 

If you brake fairly hard, because the aircraft CofG is well above the wheels and the wheelbase is not very long, Or push the stick forward, there will be a transfer of most of the aircrafts weight to the nosewheel and there will be little on the mains(nosewheel aircraft). This situation will make the aircraft very directionall unstable and very susceptible to "wheelbarrowing", where you can break a nosewheel off or dart to the edge of the runway very rapidly. To reduce this effect positive back stick will keep the weight on the mains and ensure both better braking effectiveness and better directional control.

 

As has been mentioned taxying with back stick is a good idea (unless taxying downwind) as it takes weight off the nosewheel and is very important if the ground is soft or has a lot of grass on it, (where you may have a higher power setting), to maintain prop clearance from the ground. Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Just to confuse things further, on certain nose wheel aircraft if you pull back too much you can actually loose all steering action on the nose wheel (Cessna 206) the steering is not engaged without weight on the nose oleo. This can also happen if somebody has put too much gas in it, and it's over-extended.

 

The Savannah does not like too much back stick right after landing, but as it settles you can bring it back.

 

On a good taildragger landing the stick will almost be on the back stop at touchdown, and stays there until it's in the hanger, especially in high wind.

 

What Pud refers to is 'pinning the mains' during a wheel landing in a taildragger. After the mains are on in a level atitude, a slight amount of fwd stick is used to assure the mains stay on. As the speed drops the stick is progessivly bought all the way back.

 

A good thread with plenty of great contributions IMOP....................................................

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Major

 

Can I open a discussion about your comment " On a good taildragger landing the stick will almost be on the back stop at touchdown, and stays there until it's in the hanger, especially in high wind."

 

My thoughts on the matter are as follows.

 

Full (or heaps of) back stick at relatively high speed serves to place undue and/or excessive weight on the tailwheel mechanism causing undue wear.

 

Full (or heaps of) back stick at relatively high speed or into a high wind could result in the tail remaning down or low when the if the main wing generates enough lift to actually lift off.

 

Full (or heaps of) back stick in a high tail wind may result in a noseover if the wind gets under the up (back) elevator.

 

I prefer to hold the stick neuteral or even forward which obviates all of the above problems.

 

If anyone thinks I might be exaggerating about the high winds, I have an example.

 

After flying from Tas to Yarram I landed in a bit of a stiff breeze. I was able, just, to taxi to the taxiway with the main wheels sliding sideways on the gravel for the whole distance but it was impossible to turn into the taxiway. The breeze was such that the poor brakes on the lightwing would not hold and I had to keep some power on just to stay still. When I attempted to lower the tail (Major's "almost on the back stop ") the aircraft became unstable, that is, it was in danger of lifting off and/or being blown over backwards.

 

I am actually having trouble thinking of any time when full back stick on the ground is preferable to neutral or even forward stick. Full back stich is of course required during landing.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Querty, I note your points, I can only imagine that the VGs on your wing have made what is already a very high-lift wing, even more so. As VGs are very workable at low pre-landing speeds, I can imagine them kicking in in high winds on the ground I suppose.

 

If you taxi around here with anything but back stick, and run into one of many small and ever multiplying anthills, especially at speed after touchdown, you will end up on your nose, or worse on your back which is not a good look, and may have some effect on your flying the next day!.

 

I have landed a couple of time in what I consider extremly high winds (30-35 Kts) and have never had any problem taxying using the stick into the wind method, stick back or otherwise. Cheers........................................................................................................

 

 

[skydog]

There is an opinion that the nosewheel should be treated as just for taxiing purposes only and even then you should be very wary, avoiding holes, bumps, depressions clods, sods etc.

 

A lot of light aircraft especially RV`s, have delicate nose legs and it is good practise to taxi with the stick all the way back to take load off it.

 

On take off ease the pressure on the front leg by holding the stick right back and easing it slowly forward as speed increases and pressure decreases on the nose until the aircraft flies off the runway. You may have to lower the nose a bit more once airborne depending on the aircraft and engine power.

 

On landing it is wise to keep the nosewheel off the strip to avoid possible damage etc from same holes, clods, sods, objects etc.

 

You can judge the right 'attitude' over the engine cowling by sitting in the pilot seat whilst friends push the tail down so the nose wheel is say 150 to 300mm of the strip.

 

As the aircraft slows down the nose wheel should gently settle down onto the strip and at a much slower and safer speed. You do not want to drop the nose down quickly and thud the wheel down but this is rare for a ULight plane however can be done with cessnas, pipers etc. Their gear is so strong it can take it.

 

You can effect a go round in circuits by not having the nose wheel touch at all retaining normal directional control however as others have said be wary in a powerful plane of torque so use the controls to keep the aircraft straight down the centreline.

 

 

[J170 Owner]

It's not so much 'pulling the stick back' it's more like 'keeping back pressure on' during the landing roll. The nose will settle as speed reduces. I found I was all over the place until I kept a little back pressure on the stick (as per instructor intructions). Same for take offs. Make sure you're not touching down too fast.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Full back trim on final in the 230 fixes the problem for me.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Steering the beast

 

All the feedback below is on the right track- remember effects of controls - elevator and rudder still have some authority with propeller slipstream. Try these checks.

 

1. Maintain runway heading.

 

2. Confirm power off.

 

3. trim to full aft ( neutral if Touch & go)- helps with rearward stick to lighten nose

 

4. retract flaps.( or to t/off for T&G)

 

5. Fuel pump off.( if full stop)

 

6. Brake as required. Not too hard initially. specially if nose IS high( Prop care!!)

 

7. Into wind wing down ( if strong X-wind)

 

8. Look out for obstacles.

 

9. Clear runway when safe.(+ radio)

 

As mentioned too many pilots try to wheelbarrow the a/c down the runway with too much weight on nosewheel, at best it gives your" ultralight" nosewheel a hard time.... at worst it's lotto to when you will ground loop! Hope this helps...... Ballpoint

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

One technique I found useful, especially on a first flight in type or after a long layoff is to sit in the cockpit in your normal flying posture and observe the far fence of the airfield in relation to the top of the coaming. If you are in a tailwheel type, this is about the right attiude for landing. In a tricycle, better if the fence is a tad lower in the windscreen at touchdown ... but only just .....

 

Now when you flare you just keep adding gentle back stick to achieve and then hold that attitude till touchdown. If you got it right, in a tailwheeler the three points touch down together and in a "nose wheeler" you land just mainwheels first and save the toothepick from damage. Once things are settled, add more back stick as speed slows (but not so much as to stress the rear fuselage in a tailwheeler or to remove the front wheel from the ground in a tricycle a/c).

 

Once at walking pace, adjust the elevator position according to wind direction and strength relative to your taxiing direction. Full back is a great default for a taildragger, or neutral if taxxing downwind ... and a bit of careful forward stick can help a tight turn especialy in a Tiger Moth or something with a tail skid rather than a tail wheel ......

 

 

[ossie]

Full back stich.................

Thought that was for old ladies.....................the a$$ in my pants does need sewing up, you know anyone....??

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Rocketdriver

 

Full back stick at relatively high speed serves to place undue and excessive weight on the tailwheel mechanism causing undue wear.

Full back stick at relatively high speed or into a high wind could result in the tail remaning down or low when the if the main wing generates enough lift to actually lift off.

 

Full back stick in a high tail wind may result in a noseover if the wind gets under the up (back) elevator.

 

I prefer to hold the stick neuteral or even forward which obviates all of the above problems.

 

I am actually having trouble thinking of any time when full back stick on the ground is preferable to neutral or even forward stick. Full back stick is of course required during landing.

[djpacro]

If we're talking tailwheel aeroplanes I'll go along with rocketdriver 90% for the types that I fly.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Yhanks for the tip DI. You are right of course. I am aware of that one, I some times taxi tail up just to keep myself on my toes.

 

Cheers, Qwerty

 

 

[T500]

i fly a gazell so i keep the nose back for as long as I can till the aircraft lowers its self down onto the nose wheel same with the jab if i put the nose down to early I end up with speed wobble on the nose wheel