Airborne alternative

[guggle]

I've been doing a lot of reading about microlighting in Australia and the one thing that appears to be constant is the name Airborne. Apart from a dealer for French made trikes in Alice Springs, I haven't seen anything else. Is there any other brand of microlight that is available in Australia? I've seen a UK company called PM Aviation selling a single seater from £4,500. Has anyone tried to bring one in to the country and have it certified? Would anything manufactured outside of Australia need to be certified?

 

Any advice would be welcome.

 

Cheers, Michael.

 

 

[skeptic36]

Hi Michael,

 

There are plenty of P&M trikes in Australia, although I don't know why we don't have a dealer here, there is a nice one for sale here: Trikes - Recreational Flying

 

There is also an Apollo advertised on the same page.

 

There are DTA trikes available here:Montpelier Microlights

 

I would be interested to know which brands are certified for Australia and what it takes to achieve that.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[winsor68]

That Apollo is a very, very nice looking machine...Wow!

 

 

[Tomo]

That Apollo is a very, very nice looking machine...Wow!

It's incredible!:thumb_up: Almost up to Drifter standards:laugh:

 

 

[Air Creation]

Hey Michael..yes! All imported microlights operating in Australia under CAO 95.32 are required to satisfy the NAA Standards. BCAR Section S is the priority design standard recognised since 1990, but now CASA accept DGAC, DULV and a few others under inclusion with the NAA.

 

You are very right..Airborne machines dominate the aussie market and it would do you great benefit to experience as many different certified microlights prior to purchase.

 

Smooth flights

 

Chris

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

A couple of years ago the UK deregulated single seat microlights (called SSDR) . Effectively this meant that eligible types (< 115kg ZFW, 10kg/m2 wingloading etc) no longer have to be tested to demonstrate compliance with the BCAR Section S standard before they can be sold and used in the UK.

 

As a result of this legislative change a whole range of new trike types started appearing including the one you are referring to Guggle which I believe is the Ace Laser. IIRC this is designed and built in India and sold in the UK by P&M (in addition to their better known range of 2-seaters).

 

We don't really have an equivalent to the SSDR category in Australia. I think HGFA might recognise a nanolight category but for much lighter trikes - essentially little more than self launch hang gliders. UK SSDR trikes wouldn't be too heavy to be eligible for this. Since the whole point of SSDR was to save the extremely high cost of BCAR Section S approvals, none of the types have been certified to that standard hence they can't automatically be accepted for 95.32 in Australia.

 

To register them here you would need to demonstrate that they did comply with either Section S or one of the other accepted standards which Chris (wefly) mentioned. At best this would be a complicated and time consuming job. In practice I rather doubt that many, if any, of the SSDR types could even do this. An alternative might be to try & get it accepted in the 95.10 experimental single seat category. Or maybe lobby RAAus to try & get an equivalent to SSDR implemented in Aus (unlikely since their interests seem to be inclined towards becoming more GA-like).

 

In addition to the types already mentioned in Australia, there are also a few South African Acquilla around the place. I'm not quite sure which overseas standard they demonstrated compliance with - it certainly wasn't Section S. More recently a couple of types have been accepted under LSA category (including, I believe, the Apollo which has so impressed Tomo). In these, cases the aircraft aren't independently proven (by an NAA) to meet the design standard - the manufacturer warrents that they do. If you want to have at some of the types you see in Aus you could do worse than this site Guide to Microlights and Ultralights from around the world. .

 

Re importers - there have been several Pegasus dealers in Australia over the years. (Pegasus were 1 of the 2 companies which merged to former P&M). The most recent incumbent only seems to have given up fairly recently. I don't know why but would hazard a guess that the relatively small trike market here combined with the difficulties caused by exchange rate fluctuations makes it a bit of a precarious way to earn a living.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[guggle]

Thank you all for your responses!!

 

Chris, you said it would be worth my while to check out different types of trikes before buying one. Great advice - thank you. Unlike light aircraft, which you can hire from nearly all flying schools, I don't know anyone who hires out their trikes. Does anyone here know anyone who hires theirs out?

 

Purchasing a trike will be a big investment for me (even a second hand one!!) and I will not be buying any old thing that happens along. I'd like to be able to "fly around" so to speak so I can make an educated decision come time to purchase.

 

Cheers, Michael.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

There aren't many (if any places) which rent out trikes. One reason is insurance which is either difficult to get & very expensive or, in some cases, completely unobtainable. I've even heard of flying school which won't let students solo in the school trikes.

 

You don't need to hire to fly different trikes though. If the model you are interested in is operated by a school, you could book a lesson and I'm sure the importers would be only to happy to take you for a flight ( I think most of them are instructors anyway). Failing that, you could just try & get in contact with private owners - I'd be surprised if most of them weren't happy to take up an interested passenger.

 

Sounds like you have the right idea about not rushing into a second hand purchase. There are a lot of old trikes lurking in sheds & the backs of hangers which you should be very cautious about. I've seen some I wouldn't want to sit in never mind fly ! If you are new to triking, I'd strongly recommend getting some experienced advice.

 

Hope that helps

 

John

 

 

[skeptic36]

Hi Michael,

 

Contrary to what Crezzi had to say, about a year ago while I was sitting in the hangar a former student arrived, the CFI took him for a check flight then let him go on his own in a school trike. I talked to the bloke later and he said he was doing it to log some hours to keep his license current.

 

Crezzi has way more experience than I, but I don't see the difference in that to people hiring aircraft in the 3 axis world and I think that goes on all the time.

 

The school I'm talking about often has trikes for sale and could probably arrange flights with the owners for you, but I'm not sure how that would go if you where only kicking tyres.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Contrary to what Crezzi had to say, about a year ago while I was sitting in the hangar a former student arrived, the CFI took him for a check flight then let him go on his own in a school trike. I talked to the bloke later and he said he was doing it to log some hours to keep his license current.

Fair point & I would (& have) allowed the same thing myself. When the guy was taught by the instructor, probably on the exact same trike, I guess its a slightly different situation which doesn't necessarily help someone in Guggles situation.

 

Yes, hiring is the norm with 3-axis aircraft. Generally speaking they cost a lot more than trikes so less qualified pilots are in a position to buy their own hence they have to rent. But I think the biggest reason hiring trikes isn't common is the insurance situation though.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Tracktop]

When making your choice and by all means look at as many different ones as you can, don't discount the significant benefit of having easy access to the manufacturer. Airborne are Australian made (I think supporting Australian manufacturers where possible is very important) and the staff there are always very helpful and friendly. I guess I'm in a fairly good position because I am only 40min from the factory but then Vic is not that far away either.

 

Tundra tyres are nice and am told increase your landing options considerably.

 

While there might be many 2nd hand trikes in hangers to stay away from I think there are also some that are worth a look - just make sure that you have a very experienced triker with you ( the flying type) as they seem to be able to spot the bad ones really quickly.

 

Good luck in your search.

 

Ray

 

 

[Air Creation]

There are not so many a newbee pilots that can test fly a variety of machines, because the Aussie manufacturer has had the market to themselves for so long..since about 1983.. but nobody is game to say it!! I agree in supporting Aussie products but when it involves safety..airworthiness is not a game.

 

By the way..have you had an opportunity to fly anything else but an Aussie trike.. I appreciate to hear your opinion on the Pegasus, Mainair, DTA, Air Creation, Cosmos, Aeros or Aquilla etc for the flight characteristics & performance specs.

 

Maybe you should investigate how importers handle quality control for each aircraft assembly, compliance and registration for operation in Australia. The manufacturer does not need to be just down the street for parts..if the machine is manufacturered under sound engineering practices then the only spare parts you should need will be for the engine and we have Flood Imports for our Rotax needs.

 

Does your Streak pass the German DULV Aerodynamic Stability Pitch Test???

 

Crisp handling..smooth landings

 

Chris :yin_yan:

 

 

 

[Tracktop]

Hi all

 

First of all I am only very new to flying and triking. I have never stated any different.

 

I call it how I see it and if I get it wrong I'm sorry.

 

My research also showed me ( and I will stand corrected if I am wrong) that there has never been a fatal crash of an Airborne trike that has been proven attributed to structural failure while the aircraft was being flown within the aircraft flight parameters.

 

While am very new to aviation I did research as best I could before I made my decision to purchase. While the suggestion of trying to fly different brands seem sensible I would suggest that a learner or pilot without a lot of experience ( me included) would have difficulty in decerning the difference. I know I have flown streak 11, streak 111, cruise and wizard wings during my training and while I could notice obvious differences in speed, lift etc the real differencies in handling, stability etc were far beyond my experience level at the time to correctly detect. So unless you are a very experienced detecting differences in flight of different brands is just BS. To reinforce this I have flown an outback 912 and tundra 912, they are essentially identical machines except for the pod, flairing and spats and only 2 weeks difference in age. I much prefer a pod machine as I find the windage with a streak 111 to be uncomfortable, But my friend much prefers the more open feel of the outback. These sort of things a beginner can detect and they are probably model / option specific rather than brand independant anyway. While seating may be another obvious thing even it is probably hard to make a good decision on as I would think low hr pilots are usually more tense than high hr ones so I assume seating comfort may be different as a pilot matures.

 

Along similar lines if looking at a 2nd hand trike I would suggest using a highly experienced independant trike pilot as the experienced ones around me seem to be able to spot the good from the bad trikes (condition wise) very quickly. There seem to be many hidden traps for the unwary. Reminds me of some shonky 2nd hand car dealers of old.

 

Broadening my knowledge is high on my agenda.

 

Yes Chris I have seen the test rig picture before but my guess is that there are many different ways to achieve a similar thing.

 

By the way does my streak wing fail your German test? and does it need to pass it, it certainly passes plenty of other trike relevant standards in Europe and America.

 

Part of my purchase decision making included talking to an old friend who has been involved in the ultralight scene ( not trikes so I saw him as unbiased) for more than the 20 odd years I have known him, including importing and manufacturing ultralight components. His advice to me at the time was " consider local - nearby or Australian - and easy quick access to the manufacturer as a huge benifit in selection. I took that into consideration during my purchase and have not been dissapointed.

 

As to the only spare parts you will ever need are for the engine! Do trikes not have service life on any other components, including wing fabric, heart bolt etc?. When I have had questions about my trike service, operation etc etc Airborne have been close at hand and accommodating

 

The other thing with choice is every aircraft is a compromise in one form or another. You do your research, you select the best fit for your situation, you live (hopefully) with your decision. The discussions will never end - Fords, Holden, Jabs, Airborne and even Tanarg.

 

Ray

 

 

[Air Creation]

Hi Ray..may I ask how long you been flying trikes and flight hours logged so far.

 

Chris

 

 

[Tracktop]

Hi Ray..may I ask how long you been flying trikes and flight hours logged so far.Chris

I am still learning so my experience is very limited.

Ray

 

 

[Air Creation]

Hey Ray..

 

You are right! No matter how long we been flying we are always learning. You can't buy experience..it grows with dedication, patience, wisdom and good air-man-ship.

 

Chris

 

 

[Guest rocketman]

I'll try and get you a flight test report on the Ace Aviation single seat Magic Lasers soon. I have two sitting in my hangar in Malaysia waiting on engines. Build quality - good. We are liasing with Ace over a 2 seater trike under development so I guess it's "watch this space".

 

Neale.

 

 

[Guest Redback]

Hi Guys, First post, I fly a Airborne 912 tundra with Streak 111 wing and love every minute of it

 

Cheers Geoff

 

 

[Tracktop]

Hey Geoff

 

How about a pic of your trike - the world's most popular brand trike outsells it's nearest competitor world wide by 2.5 to 1 ;)

 

also to the forum.

 

 

[Air Creation]

Hey GeoffHow about a pic of your trike - the world's most popular brand trike outsells it's nearest competitor world wide by 2.5 to 1 ;)

also to the forum.

Hey Tracktop

Just wondering where you got the statistics for your quote??

 

and which trike is the nearest competitor???

 

Cheers

 

Chris :yin_yan:

 

 

[crusty]

G'day everyone, I have been rather amused at the various comments regarding a choice of trike for guggle. My advice to guggle is talk to and listen to as many people as you can and do not make a choice on brand/model of trike untill you are well into your training. Be carefull of people that bag certain brands of trikes as there might be a hidden agenda in their arguments. All trike brands are good, it will depend on what you the buyer prefers, and you will be influenced by the brand/type of trike your instructor flies. If you are fortunate enough to gain practical exposure to a range of trikes, go for it and then make a decision that suits you and no one else.

 

I fly an Airborne XT 912 Outback and am very happy with it but in saying that I will not put forward an adverse comment on other brands of trikes as:naughty: they are all good.

 

Hey Wefly, as you are from Alice Springs, you wouldn't be the same person who imports and sells Air Creation trikes would you?

 

Crusty

 

"Happiness is a limp windsock and clear skies"

 

 

[alf jessup]

Eh Crusty,

 

I'm with you, it is up to the induvidual on what he/she trains in and what he/she likes the look of and what he/she preffers to spend his/her hard earned on.

 

It is just like the typical holden versus ford syndrome, mines better than yours ect when infact the all perform the same service to us, get us up in the air.

 

Me personally I would settle for any trike that has come from a reputable manufacturer built to a certain standard.

 

I have the first ever XT 912 built by airborne and as much as i love it I wouldn't dare say it is any better than a DTA, Pegasus or an air creation trike ect.

 

Me, I just thank all these trike manufacturers out there for making these machines to give us the opportunity to fly and leave the earthly bonds and go explore the world we live in.

 

Thats my 2 bobs worth.

 

Cheers

 

Alf:clap:

 

 

[Tracktop]

I have small to zip knowledge on other brands other than what I read , research and see so I didn't and wouldn't put any down without that knowledge, I do see a lot of Airborne owners that are very happy with their choice. but :stirring pot: gets you people talking and that's got'a be good.

 

Yes Chris stats are industry stats provided by Airborne to me, and came in a discussion about Airborne trike accidents world wide instigated by me. Since you raised it, the other stat provided was 90% of trike schools world wide use Airborne trikes to train in. If it was my business then I would expect to know where I stood in my industry - especially if I was at or near the top of that industry. So I have no reason to doubt the numbers provided are unreasonable even if they were ball park ( it was a casual conversation while at the factory.) It's a KPI I would expect them to know.

 

Hows the weather out there Chris, better than here I hope. How about posting a pic of your current trike.

 

 

[tassytriker]

Gday

 

I think there is a lot to be said for buying local after completing major work on my trike in accordance with statuory requirements i am impressed that i can ring the dealer before i go to work in the morning and have anything i require the next day and thats from tassy(sorry alf your not in the southern state I am:thumb_up:) so it must be at least that easy for anyone else?

 

I have tested this many times,surely this has to have some bearing on how well

 

your trike is maintained as it starts getting a few hours on?

 

gary

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Guggle:

 

I too am learning to fly the trike and I've gone with an Airborne trike because they are a local supplier. IMHO this has two benefits; I'm supporting local jobs, but more importantly, if my trike has to go back to the manufacturer or I have a need to go to them to resolve something, they are here in Oz.

 

Another reason I went for the Airborne as opposed to say the Apollo is the oppenness of the construction on the Airborne. Everything is out in the open where you can see the condition/security of the parts. While I like the sleek look of the Apollo, having everything covered by cowlings would make maintenance/inspections harder. Also there is the weight issue of all those cowlings. The cowlings may offset their weight by reducing drag, but for me accessibility is more important.