Getting started

[Guest Redair]

Greetings each, I guess you've been asked this kind of stuff before, but for my benefit... can anyone/everyone advise on the best way to go about getting started when it comes to learning to fly, and, in choosing the right aircraft,

 

assuming that I know nothing about flying, (not quite true, but assume that, and I might just find out all those things you all would expect me to already know).

 

At the moment I am undecided as to aim towards a trike, or something more like an X-air, (any thoughts there?)so would it be wise to find a school that teaches on X-air type aircraft, and then convert to trike later if required, or would I be better set by deciding on one type of aircraft and sticking with it?

 

Also, is there any advantage in booking a block training session, (ie 2 week intensive course) or is an hour by hour approach better?

 

And, if anyone knows of any little pitfalls that the know-nothing future pilot should be aware of, then please let me know.

 

Many thanks, and I hope with your help, I'll be off the ground soon!

 

Regards, Redair.

 

 

[Admin]

Hi Redair

 

Firstly, a HUGE welcome to the forums - it is people like you that these friendly forums were initially set up for.

 

There will be no doubt be a lot of members offer their advice and most probably based on experience to help you.

 

may I suggest if you have not already done so have a read of the "Training" page accessed by the training link at the top of this page. That may help to set the scene while other members respond to your questions.

 

And again welcome aboard!

 

 

[facthunter]

Redair, youre certainly keen. This scene is a bit like a chinese restaurant (too much choice) But thats a good fault in the long run, as variety is the spice ...so they say!

 

Don't rush in, talk to people,keep doing what you are doing already & with any aeroplane you purchase, accept that it will not be all things . Try to work out whether you want to do long trips (4-stroke, faster,larger fuel capacity, comfortable, quiet,reliable) for example. Do you want 1 or 2 seats.Everyone wants 2 seats of course but your choice is more limited, if price is a major consideration. Do you want exotic& (possibly) imported or simple & easy to inspect & repair.If you buy well & don't like it ,You could change your mind & not lose too much You could save some money if you buy a particular aircraft & then train on it .Has to be 2-seat of course &The instructor has to be willing. The X-AIR has a strong undercarriage & they are not very old so you should be able to get a good one. Hope this helps a little bit N.....

 

 

[Guest Redair]

Thanks for the replies so far. To give a little more info, I don't see the point, (at least not at the moment) of buying a single seat aircraft, despite the cost being lower than that of 2 seaters. I Have been wanting to fly for many years, and although it is "My" dream, that doesn't mean I don't want to share it with my wife... and then if she doesn't like it, ah well, at least I tried!!!

 

The hope is, (and this raises another question) to be able to fly from our garden, and subjest to a few alterations, I should end up with approx 230m long strip to operate from. So assuming that I am not stopped by any aviation laws, I am going to be looking for the best compromise between STOL abillity, comfort, ease to fly and cost, and 2 seats of course. Looks are not my first concern, as no matter how rough the aircraft is, I know I will always look great! And as for fancy gadgets, well if it's all there at the right price, that's fine, but I do tend to work on the principal that the more there is, the more there is to go wrong. Choice between 2 and 4 stroke raises yet more questions, but these again would have to come down to performance against cost. No point buying a cheap engine if I can't clear the fence at the end of the strip!

 

Ilook forward to your further thoughts.

 

Regards, Redair.

 

 

[Galpin]

Redair, Facthunter makes a valid point, namely, do a lot of homework. In recent days I have taken the plunge and placed an order for the Arion Lightning. It has taken me over 12 months to arrive at this point. I considered and researched more than 12 different aircraft, among which were 2 stol aircraft, the Savanagh and the Zenith 701.

 

I looked at Australian, European and American aircraft. In the end it was the Arion Lightning that measured up to the criteria that I set for myself.

 

The criteria I set was built-up over time from discussing issues with our club members, people in the industry and GA pilots with RAA endorsements. Where possible, I flew the aircraft that were of interest. I might add I have not flown an Arion Lightning as there are none in Australia just yet. They do, however, have some similarities to the Esqual.

 

More could be said, but I think you get the picture. DON'T RUSH!!! Do your home work and keep asking questions. Talk also to people who are currently building their aircraft, whether they be from plans or kits. Please take this for what its worth.

 

 

[Guest bateo]

G'day Redair,

 

I agree with facthunter and Galpin, Do your homework in what you really want to achievein your flying and what your prepared to pay. Don't always go the cheapest lesson though, 9 out of 10 you end up paying just as much or even more!!!

 

I have logged many hours in X-AIR's.. Both in the 618 and 582 rotax. Great aircraft, and would be perfect for a beginner as they are cheap, easy to fly and most of all very enjoyable.I would suggest learning in a 3 axis first, then converting over to a trike. The reason being, (opinions may vary here) is that you learn to fly using all concepts of flying, rudder, joystick but also the feel of flying the aircraft.. I feel that if this is taught first, it is easier tolearn in a trike via using the knowledge, skills and techniques used of a normal 3 axis aircraft, but that is just my opinion.

 

I Completed my GFPT and all PPL theory before I flew a Joystick aircraft, (I am endorsed on6 different GA aircraft and5recreational)and I found that the X-Air was very similar to fly of the Gazzell and Tecnam, although a bit more sensitive to the controls and slower of course.. So in respect to finding a school that instructs with a X-air, I personally do not think it will matter at all, depending on how much of a natural pilot you are, to adapt to flying an x-air from say a Gazzell, is very easy.

 

I learnt in a tail dragger T500 thruster and adapted into the x-air within an hour. (This of course may vary on the pilot)

 

The X-Air is a perfect training aircraft, I honestly don't think you can go wrong with a 582..But saying that, do your research.. you may come across another aircraftthat may suit you better..

 

bateo

 

 

[Guest Redair]

The X-Air is a perfect training aircraft, I honestly don't think you can go wrong with a 582..But saying that, do your research.. you may come across another aircraftthat may suit you better..

 

Mmmm more food for thought. Thanks. I must admit that I do feel a little more of a leaning towards a 3 axis aircraft, and then if need be going to a trike. But that was just my thoughts, hence my questions, to see what others who have been there and done it,would advise. I guess I'm just not very good at choosing when I have too many options. I did however read in one of the other threads, that the X-air with a 582 was rather under-powered when 2 up and full of fuel. Do you or anyone else know what the difference is in average takeoff run lengthsbetween the X-air and a similar powered trike?

 

Also, would I be right in thinking that an X-air, (or similar) would be able to better cope with rougher conditions than a trike?

 

Regards, Redair.

 

 

[Guest bateo]

G'day Redair,

 

I have flown a Trike and honestly think in my opinion that 3 axis would be much more suitable to learn in first, Reason being of the techniques and co-ordination of piloting a 3 axis aircraft become familiar and makes flying a trike much easier. ( Some pilots may think opposite to this )

 

In respect to the X-air, They have a similar take-off distance of the trike.. You would have more than enough on a 200 m strip...

 

The X-air handles very well in a crosswind, I have experienced this many times.. Much better than a Trike.

 

Yes the 582 is a bit more thirsty on fuel with 2 passengers, but only very minimal from the 618... 582 you should be looking around at 15-16 lph with a hot dayaslight deduction inclimb.618 is very similar to that, but has the faster climb rate... In calm conditions on both engines, looking at a 60 knot cruise.

 

The X-air is for the perfect pilot who wants to just go for a fly with the family, have a bit of fun, take the doors off in the summer months...

 

I have had an engine failure in an X-air..(Nothing to do with X-air or Rotax) just a loose hose.. and it handled beautifully with no power and can honestly say I felt I had control the entire time...

 

For the money to buy a used X-air, fully decked out with a 582.. You really will get your money back, they hold their value very well..

 

Hope this helps...

 

 

[facthunter]

Generalising here, but 3-axis handle crosswinds, weightshift is handled by crosswinds.( I'm ducking already)Unless you have a genuine short field capable A/C I reckon you need 400 Meters, especially on warm days.(Have a look at density altitude effects.) Also consider your approach & departure paths , turbulence around trees & sheds. N....

 

 

[Guest Redair]

Thanks, this is all helping... to make my decission harder!! (Only joking) I really do appreciate the replies, and eventually, I'm sure that I will make my mind up. I am probably the worst person for making decissions, as I tend to look around at all, (or as many as I can find) possibilities, then try and decide what I want the item to do, what it must do, and what I would like it to do. Then I find myself making For and Against lists, ifI have managed to narrow the search down to 2 particular items, or 2 groups, (eg trikes v 3 axis). This normally works quite well, but in this case I seem to be coming up with so many Fors and Againsts, plus the other considerations, like storage, maintenence, limted landing space, etc. etc. that I am really struggling on this one.

 

But hey, keep all the advice and opinions coming, someone might just mention a point that I haven't considered and that could be the clincher.

 

Redair.

 

 

[Guest Redair]

You sound very wise Redair

Wise maybe, but that isn't stopping me from tearing out what little hair I have whilst trying to come to a decission!

 

Redair.

 

 

[Ultralights]

the way i came to a decision was to list the qualities i wanted in an aircraft, and with every aircraft i looked at, ticked the boxes that fullfilled the requirements

 

mine were

 

* 2 seats

 

* aluminium or fibreglass construction, my trade background.

 

* STOL ability to land and take offat friends properties. about 200mtrs or less.

 

* Range to visit relatives interstate minumum 400km.

 

*enough speed to make such interstate trips possible in reasonable time. 85 to90kts min cruise.

 

* price of approx $40K give or take a few $K for mods, extra instruments

 

* proven design withnumbers already flying for support base and knowledge

 

* reasonable cargo carrying abilty

 

at the end of my list was the Savannah with all boxes ticked.

 

fortunatly for the Savannah the new VG varient made it the winner with higher cruise speed and better economy.

 

even though i initially found it an ugly aircraft, but doing my research and talking to owners, i have come to love the design. Ultralights

 

 

[Guest bateo]

I agree with Ultralights. You need to really sit down and thinkwhat you want to achieve and what you require for the type of flying you want to do...

 

This relates back to setting yourself a checklist of what you require from the planes specifications, what's more comfortable for you to fly ( afterall your the pilot ) and those little extras that would make your aircraft more enjoyable to fly...

 

Then tick these boxes, this will help you make up your mind...

 

Can I suggest though, before really hitting the depth of buying an aircraft, Get airborne for a few hours... (more than a TIF) in both Trike and 3 axis and experience what you feel more comfortable and enjoy more... You will soon be able to make a decision of at least which type of endorsement your going to undertake, and then go from there...

 

 

[Guest Redair]

Thanks Chris, Ultralights, Bateo et al.

 

Firstly.. an announcement... I got off the ground today! My first trike TIF, and my thoughts? Wow, after the initial feeling of being on top of a very large wobbly flag-pole, and a long way to the ground, I really got into it. Conditions were "a bit lumpy", (to use a nautical term!) but pleased to say that that didn't put me off. I was surprised how much force was required to move the wing, but got to grips with it quite quickly. All being well, I'm off to try 3-axis next weekend.

 

Ultralights; when you say that one of your criteria was to get into 200m or less strips, I have been working on using about 230m, but have met quite a lot of negative reaction for using a strip of this length, most seem to think I would need at least 300m, your thoughts please?

 

Stilltrying to draw up that list, but I'm finding that it's more a case of seeing what I can do without to get down to my price range... ah well, I'll keep working on it. And, with that in mind, anyones thoughts on new versus second, third or even eighth hand aircraft?

 

Thanks again, Redair

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Redair,

 

my 2 cent's worth on the strip length issue:

 

The Tecnam P92 Echo Super is a very popular ultralight 3 axis in Australia. Let's use that as an example. You may ultimately end up with something that has better takeoff and landing performance but it won't be a huge quantum better.

 

The documentation for that aircraft quotes a takeoff run of 140 metres. That figure will have been achieved with a very experienced pilot in ISA or near ISA conditions. It will also likely not have been achieved at MTOW.

 

So let's start adding some safety factors. I think some of the material on the RAA site suggests a basic factor of 1.5 over manufacturer's claims -> that's now 210 metres. What if your strip is grass? Maybe add 10% if it's dry, more if wet and/or long. Now what are we going to do on a 30 degree Celsius day? That's far from ISA and BTW the POH for the Tecnam that I fly doesn't provide data for non standard temperature and pressure takeoff performance. So you are at MTOW, it's 30 degrees, you are a low time pilot and the MTOW is made up in part by your nearest and dearest who is sitting confidently beside you.

 

To paraphrase Dirty Harry "are you feeling lucky?"

 

Now let's talk about the other things that might go on: What are your options if you have an engine failure as you pass over the end of the strip on takeoff? Do you have somewhere to go or are you about to visit the next door neighbour's dining room? Perhaps the same next door neighbour has some other form of obstruction or there's something else that places an obstruction on your takeoff or landing path - takeoff and landing distances required just got longer.

 

Let me be clear also that I am not knocking the Tecnam here. It's a great aircraft but we need to be aware of the issues here.

 

I've just been flying with some very experienced ultralight pilots out of a lovely little grass strip. 1400 feet long with good to very good undershoot/overshoot areas. These guys absolutely had their energy management under control and they considered it a safe strip for continuous operations. Could they get into shorter strips? You bet. Did they want to have to do that every day without options if they stuffed up? Not on your life. They all knew pilots who had stuffed up: some survived and some died.

 

My bottom line is that at some future point of experience you may consider 230 metres a safe strip. I don't believe that is a decision that you should make now at this stage of your training.

 

In the spirit of a long, fun and safe flying career.

 

Best wishes

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest Redair]

Mike, this is why I ask these seemingly daft questions, as I do find it hard to believe some of the takeoff and landing distances claimed by certain manufacturers blrub, and I want as much sound advice on these matters as I can get BEFORE I make any firm plans.

 

Thanks for your input, it is all going to hopefully stop me from making any silly mistakes later on.

 

Regards, Redair

 

 

[lambadaman]

Hi Redair,

 

Just read this thread. I have to agree with the concerns of others regarding the strip length!!

 

I would recomend you look at the Bantam aircraft as an option, there were two for sale in the latest RAAus mag. They have a good short field capability, are reasonably robust and you can get training on them.

 

I have flown them over the last few years and think that they are quite easy to fly.

 

I had the pleasure of deliveringa Bantam from Moruya on the NSW south coast to The Oaks airfield near Camden. The chap selling the aircraft kept it in a shed in his back garden. This garden was about 300m long with trees at both ends, and while solo opperations were reasonable, two up ops were notfor the faint hearted!!!

 

The Bantam is powered by the Rotax 582 and can handle some cross country flying, with the appropriate fuel planing.

 

Imust point out that I do not have any comercial interest in the Bantam, but think it would make a good choice for a first aircraft.

 

If you have any specific questions on this, just ask and I will help if I can. lambadaman

 

 

[Yenn]

A lot of common sense in this forum so I can't add much, but STOL is a serious business and a mistake can cost dearly. You would have to be up to speed with all that has already been mentioned here and also weight and balance needs careful consideration on short strips.

 

I think your best bet would be to learn to fly anything first and then look around for a STOL machine when you are confident. If you can learn on strips of 200 or even 300m then you are a better man than me. It is so easy to be too fast or too high and then an early decision about a co around has to be made.

 

It is rather like a learner driver starting on a F1 car.

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Funny thing... my instructor is hammering into me the fact that P Charts WILL be used almost every time you fly.

 

Runway length available, versus required.. temp, slope, weight, balance, crosswind, trees at the end of the runway... a zillion thingsall variable....

 

Geez no wonder I lose sleep after a dose of P Chart theory!

 

Ben

 

 

[Guest Redair]

Well, it looks like I've just about given up on the idea of trying to have a strip at home. Thanks for everyones advice, you may well have saved me a lot of hard work and expense, not to mention the possibility of a bent plane.

 

I do think though, that I will try and get an aircraft that can be easily pulled down, so that I can keep it at home... unless of course my friendly neighbourhood farmer will clear me a spot in one of his paddocks!!

 

Please keep the advice coming... the more I learn the safer I hope to be.

 

Redair.