Something to think about.... and do you do this?

[Tomo]

I am just interested in hearing what others have experienced, and or have I missed something in the books?

 

Went and talked to the gyro flight school today, and the instructor asked me what I've been taught about airmanship? I was not real shore what to say! because airmanship is a variation of a lot of things! I ask why, and he said, well nearly every time he was about a foot off the ground on landing, I'd come onto the radio.......

 

Happened three times apparently, I just happened to fluke calling downwind just when he was in a critical phase of training someone to land....!

 

He said it's good airmanship to see where the other aircraft is (which I do of course) but wait until they've landed, or well before they are starting to land before calling on the radio.... I said it makes perfect sense, and I am glad he pointed it out to me...

 

So does anyone else actually do this, or have I missed something somewhere? I've read a lot of books, but have never actually come across anything like this... I know it's just common courtesy now that its been pointed out... And If its in part of our training, I've probably been told, but it just didn't sink in!

 

Thanks

 

 

[Guest kiwilad]

What if you're 3 miles out when you call,sounds like he needs to harden up a bit

 

 

[motzartmerv]

That woould be nice in a perfect world, but its simply not practical i think.. Sure if your close enough to do it then do it...but seriously, from downwind, watching a gyro land... come off the grass....

 

 

[BigPete]

The only time not to broadcast is when someone else is already doing so - otherwise you call it as you need to.

 

regards

 

 

[Thx1137]

going by the way that reads that is just bizarre in my opinion.

 

You cannot spend time looking around for other aircraft to see if they _might_ want to make a call or worrying that you _might_ distract them. How can you know and surely handling distractions (if you can call making the required calls a distraction) is their problem?

 

(for me) Airmanship says that you help they guy out if you can but you do not break any rules or sacrifice the situational awareness of yourself or aircraft that may have an interest in you position for it. It is his problem, not yours.

 

Here I am assuming you are simply making the required calls and not having a chat about the price of rice in russia or something :-)

 

 

[icebob]

Hi,

 

if i see another aircraft like described i make a point of saying "turning final second and behind XXXX" that way there is no doubt or at least should not be doubt where i am and what i am doing to all in the circuit or local area.

 

I think this instructor is being a little harsh. Maybe he could take you for a flight to show you,knowing and doing is to better understand.

 

Bob.

 

 

[Tomo]

Thanks for that guys, I can breath a little better now.............

 

As for talking about the price of rice in Russia, nah I didn't think that real appropriate!

 

As for being a little harsh, I don't have anything against him in the least, and I can see his point, but like you all said, I don't really think It's my problem at all that I call when he's about to land... though I'll try not to do it from now on if I'm in the position to have a choice.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

airmanship is not cutting your wingman off when he has 'tone'.

 

Nar, its things like not leaving your aircraft in the refuelling area and disapearing for a wiz and coffee. pointing the prop in a direction that does not empty or fill your neighbours hanger when you start and variations thereof. If you share an aircraft leave it clean and tidy and tanks full. you get the jist hey. some of that ol fashioned manners stuff.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Hi Tomo,

 

You keep on doing what your doing...the gyro is pretty hard to see at the best of times and general rule of thumb is "Aviate-Navigate-Communicate" (in that order) On downwind it would be hard for you to fathom whether he is touching down or conducting a missed approach a couple of feet off the ground...It is GOOD airmanship to make your call at the appropiate time to assist other aircraft in the circuit or inbound to your aerodrome to know where you are in the circuit rather than worry about when a preceding aircraft is touching down...I've never heard of such a stupid reason to have a go at you....obviously hadn't taken his happy pill!!

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

Tomo,

 

Airmanship starts, and continues to reside in, your own cockpit of the safety of yourself, who is with you and your aircraft.

 

Being put in a position of second guessing what is happening in somebody else's cockpit is not only stupid - it is potentially dangerous in my opinion.

 

I see the point of what the instructor was saying but I am a bit astounded - really! If he cannot teach while putting up with routine radio discipline then he (or she) needs to think about if they should be instructing at all - or turn the volume down a bit.

 

Next step will be - "Hey do you all mind landing because I want to fly and keeping a lookout is just too much of a distraction - I am teaching attitude flying today!"

 

Aye

 

Tony

 

 

[Mc Guyver]

Hi Tomo,

 

That only applies if you have the runway insight. Obviously if you are 3 miles out you would not know the situation at the airfield.Think back to your training days, on very short finals, the instructor is talking you through your landing or talking you out of a pear shaped situation, someone transmits and you cannot hear your instructor. Could be critical. If at a training airfield you have them in sight and broadcast, I would then look at it as poor airmanship (please don't shoot me down! :-) )

 

 

[Guest brentc]

If everyone did that at my school you'd never get a radio call in!

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hmmm - I'm with Tony here.

 

I've heard all sorts of definitions of airmanship, including a pretty lightweight one from a government agency that should know better - something to do with courtesy and politeness.

 

To me airmanship has a number of elements. Some are sine qua non...they just have to be automatic...they are about flying alone. Others move us into the realms of being an effective aviator.

 

• Stick and rudder - this is just the "flying" bit;
   
   
  
• Situational awareness - this is knowing what and who is where in your "universe". It's things like traffic, weather, CTA steps, airstrips, terrain, fuel, endurance...
   
   
  
• Management - this is about being able to have the "head room" to do something with the situational awareness. It's things like "if that weather moves in I have the following options..." It's about being able to prioritise tasks and decisions, about understanding what can wait and what can't, about staying ahead of the aircraft - mentally.
   
   
  

 

 

Your cockpit is the centre of your "universe". Sure you need to know there is a gyro around. Knowing that he's about to land and would like you not to make a radio call at that point is simply superfluous. You have higher priorities than that.

 

Kind regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest Redair]

Seems odd to me... but what if the guy that is landing is NOT trying to talk to a student? Is it OK to make the call then? That's when you need that vital piece of aeronautical equipment... the crystal ball, it will let you know just when it is safe to transmit. Of course, if everyone else who is in the circuit stays quiet, at least the instructor will be clearly heard by the student as he points out all the other aircraft that are crashing into each other! Cover yourself mate... tell the world where you are and what you are doing.

 

Redair.

 

 

[Tomo]

Think back to your training days, on very short finals, the instructor is talking you through your landing or talking you out of a pear shaped situation, someone transmits and you cannot hear your instructor. Could be critical. If at a training airfield you have them in sight and broadcast, I would then look at it as poor airmanship (please don't shoot me down! :-) )

I won't shoot you down, that's the reason for this thread, to see what others think....

 

I can remember a lot of times when the radio is blaring away when in training, especially on week end's, (there's a gliding field a stones throw away)... but you just have it turned to a volume where it's still hearable, and the instructor just spoke louder, if the calls had nothing to do with us that is!

 

And like I said, I see his/your point, and think it is a good thing to do if "possible", but like Dunlopdangler said, gyro's are very difficult to see and know if they've landed, or what there doing....!

 

 

[Tomo]

I would love it if you could PM me the name of that instuctor :thumb_up:

I didn't start this thread to down the instructor... I just was interested because he did seem pretty ...ah... agitated....... and of course for a newly learned pilot, I felt pretty bad of myself:faint:

 

But It's awesome to see so many reply's, thanks again guys, I can now sleep peacefully tonight!

 

 

[Guest drizzt1978]

MAYDAY!! MAYDAY!! armm opps my bad your landing, il just wait till you have done that before I make that call!!!!!

 

 

[Tomo]

Im gunna bring it up on the ASRA site to just get some discussion going on the topic

Ok, so we'll see what they all reckon eh!

 

For those (including myself) who are interested what this bunch say, I found it Here!

 

 

[Tracktop]

I would think as an instructor he should also be well aware that pilot skills and experience vary greatly. I'm still training and a new pilot is probably not much different from me, but on down wind before turning final when you make your call can be a busy time. I would think while you would be keeping an eye on the run way, looking for other aircraft in the sky that may conflict with you intentions is far more important. making the call at the right time if you can also helps others see you ( text states somewhere -ac are easier to see while banking. I think for him to expect you to diminish your chance of being seen for the sake of his inter-cockpit coms is poor airmanship.

 

From my very limited experience multitasking seems to become easier the more hrs and experience you accumulate.

 

my 2c worth anyway

 

Ray

 

 

[Relfy]

Seems a bit strange to me Tomo, given that with the amount of traffic especially on the weekends that he should single you out. I believe that it is important to be able to fly your aircraft and take in others around you at the same time. This is something a student pilot would gain from.

 

I remember though on my first solo, there was another a/c in the circuit and when my instructor made the radio call to that effect, this aircraft landed out of courtesy and the pilot even came over afterwards to share a coffee and offer advice on removing grins stuck to ones face. I thought that was a good display of airmanship! :thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest mike_perth]

Tomo I stay stick to your guns mate if you had to wait until the aircraft infront of you, or behind you, or on the parallel runway to land, takeoff, whatever at somewhere like Jandakot, Moorabin, Bankstown (sorry speaking from GA experiance here) then you would be waiting a long time to get that call in at exactly the right time to keep everyone happy!

 

As has been said you need to be situationally aware but as you have pointed out if the situation deems it appropriate then the instructor in the Gyro needs to turn down his radio to make it easier for him to communicate to his student

 

Mike

 

 

[Simonflyer]

I reckon you should buy a referee's whistle, and next time you see this bloke on short final give him about 5 seconds as hard as you can..I mean really.Hes gotta harden the hell up.(If he's a very new instructor, he gets off the hook a little, but he still needs to learn a bit more himself about reality!)

 

But in all seriousness, when its time for you to make a call, you make it as long as someone else isnt making a call or there isnt someone waiting for a readback or reply.At the busy GA airports, you can be lucky to get a call in anywhere let alone time it so you dont muck up someones greaser.

 

Ive just finished reading one of Ernest Ganns books, and when he was a co-pilot one of his captains started lighting matches in front of his eyes during final as some strange form of training!.He said it ended up preparing him for something far worse, and he survived it..Im not sure it should be put into the PPL syllabus though...

 

 

[pudestcon]

Many years ago doing solo circuits at Narrogin in the Drifter not long after going solo I was on very late final when I got a request for my position from the glider tug operating from the same airfield. I somehow managed to garble "late final" and later that day the tug pilot came over to apologise for his radio request so late into my final as he knew I was a very inexperienced training student. I thought that was very decent of him given his hours of experience and my training status. I thanked him and responded by saying that it was a high work load for me but I recognised that this is part of learning to fly and responding accordingly. We all share the same space and need to act in a courteous manner... it's called airmanship and I don't reckon that instructor showed much of it Tomo. Rest easy mate.

 

Pud

 

 

[Tomo]

Quote from that rotor forum~

 

Maybe they thought that you were doing it intentionally.

He did actually ask if I was just doing it to annoy him! I said It hadn't even entered my head that is was annoying someone!;)

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Christ what a thread, I've been trying to get in here.

 

I think the gyro instructor possibly has a serious personal problem. Pretty much like a few instructors I've run into over the years. They spin a prop, take off and then think they instantly own the airfield, and expect everybody to get out of their way...... WRONG.....If the radio traffic interferes with his training then he needs to go somewhere where it doesn't.

 

Of course there is standard radio ettiquet and stepping on somebodys transmission is bad airmanship, and should be frowned upon.

 

Of course it could be expected that other craft might co-operate with training aircraft in the circut, but to modify your radio call proceedure to accomodate him....Tell him he's dreaming !!................................................................