Ballistic Parachute On Jabiru J230

[bluey the fly]

I was wondering if anyone has fitted a ballistic parachute on a Jabiru J230, or whether it is possible to do this? The feedback from Jabiru is no, but i was wondering if any engineers had looked at this? It would be nice to know that you had this backup when flying.

 

 

[Yenn]

Why would you need one. They can recover form a spin and I havn't heard of one breaking up in flight. Most of the accidents I have heard of would be too low for a chute to work.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

True Ian, I'm yet to hear of a Jabiru breaking up in flight with a wing falling off or similar. Then again, if the engine failed in a 5,000ft cruise over dodgey terrain, you may wish to pull the chute if you felt there was nowhere to land. The argument as to whether or not to fit one is relevant for all aircraft types.

 

I'm of the opinion that a ballistic chute could be fitted to ANY aircraft, it's just a matter of expert fitting and your budget.

 

 

[sleemanj]

I'm of the opinion that a ballistic chute could be fitted to ANY aircraft, it's just a matter of expert fitting and your budget.

I think you need to qualify that - can be fitted to almost any light single engine piston.

 

No way are you equipping a 747 with a ballistic chute, the chute would probably be so big and heavy it'd never get off the ground with it.

 

Big isn't the only problem, if your aircraft has a high stalling speed, you are at best going to tear the chute to bits, at worst, tear the aircraft to bits.

 

You also need to consider that where the chute attaches to the aircraft needs to handle not just the entire weight of the aircraft, but probably a good couple of times that when the chute inflates, slamming on the brakes so to speak, large force, concentrated in a small spot... needs some good engineering to be sure it works, that spot needs to be pretty near the center of gravity, you don't want to be coming down nose or tail first by much.

 

 

[bluey the fly]

yes sleemanj, i totally agree the chute would have to attach at the centre of gravity, and with an overhead wing it would probably rip the wing off. A stronger internal frame may be required. I would still like the option of the chute over tiger country. NO one likes to be gliding into trees at 100kph.

 

 

[Guest drizzt1978]

And then there is the case of will it deploy and will it get you in to more trouble....

 

But hey if there is no where to land!!!

 

 

[Guest brentc]

ANY aircraft, meaning ANY RA-Aus type aircraft for which this forum is about.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Big isn't the only problem, if your aircraft has a high stalling speed, you are at best going to tear the chute to bits, at worst, tear the aircraft to bits.

Stall speed won't be a problem as you would have a maximum deployment speed set with the installation. Cirrus from memory have a max deployment speed of around 130 knots (demonstrated).

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Better have a look at the recent problems Cirrus have been having with ballistic chutes, including some fatalities after deployments. Probabily best to consider dropping into those trees at 45 kts instead, you'll walk away from that if you remember to get the fuel and master off....there are plenty of aeroplanes in the world..............................................................................................

 

 

[Ultralights]

unfortunatly a few Jabirus have gone down in tiger country, and Fortnatly, the have held up pretty well, with the crews surviving.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Better have a look at the recent problems Cirrus have been having with ballistic chutes, including some fatalities after deployments.

I follow the Cirrus quite closely being a regular flyer of an SR20 and I'm not aware of any fatalities with the chute deployed. The Sydney Cirrus where the chute didn't deploy is not a good example, they were below 300ft. Do you have a link for this?

 

 

[sleemanj]

I follow the Cirrus quite closely being a regular flyer of an SR20 and I'm not aware of any fatalities with the chute deployed. The Sydney Cirrus where the chute didn't deploy is not a good example, they were below 300ft. Do you have a link for this?

Parachute (CAPS) Deployment History - Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association

 

There have been 14 known CAPS activations. 12 deployments saved 27 people (figure does not include one unborn child who was also saved in pull #13) with 1 fatality, and 2 deployments which failed with 1 fatality and 2 injuries. The two deployment failures involved one activation at very high speed (likely twice the deployment speed), and the other activation where the rocket took an unusual trajectory resulting in a failure to open the canopy. The trajectory anomaly resulted in an airworthiness directive for modifying the CAPS rocket assembly.

Don't know how up to date that list is, nothing since 2007, could mean no activations since 2007 I suppose.

 

 

[Relfy]

This activation was interesting and testiment to the integrity of the system. Without the chute this may have been an intirely different story.

 

CAPS pull #6, June 2005, Haverstraw, NY, 1 serious injury (compression fracture of vertabrae) Factors: IFR on approach to KHPN, pilot incapacitated from brain seizure, loss of conciousness, awoke and recovered from Vne dive, determined numbness and loss of function in legs Activation: low altitude, last radar report at 1,600 feet and 190 knots (well above Vpd of 133 knots) Landing: water, bay of Hudson River

 

 

[Yenn]

How hard is the opening shock of a ballistic chute. I know that the human frame can easily withstand the opening shock of a sky jumper going from terminal velocity to chute speed. Surely the opening shock is reduced by the method of opening, from my recollection the chute tends to stream out and there is a low pressure area at the middle of the canopy that opens it from the middle out. Maybe one of our skydiving experts can clarify how they work.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Interesting comment Ian as human parachutes if you look closely have a system that slides down the strings once deployed that stops the chute from deploying rapidly. Apparently until this was invented anything could be expected - I've even heard that you could SNAP off your aorta, straight from the heart!

 

Thanks for the link SleemanJ, that backs up what I thought that there have been no new issues with chute deployment. The ballistic chute still proves its' worth as far as I am concerned and they appear to be a worthwhile asset depending on the types of flying that you will do.

 

By the way Maj, I'm tipping you'll hit the trees at a somewhat higher speed than 45 knots in a Cirrus!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Not if you know what you'r doing !

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Over the fence at 75 knots in the Cirrus!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Yes but if you'r going into trees as suggested, I'm assuming deadstick, otherwise you wouldn't be going into them. You would stall at the last moment into the treetops at whatever the stall is on a Cirrus, or even lower if you'r lucky. It has been done several times before, and tops of trees can be soft if you drop into them at lowest possible speed. Your biggest problem then is how to get down from the tree if the plane remains in the tree.

 

Years ago myself and several skydivers were dropped accidentally over endless pine forrest, with no chance of making it back to the airfield, even though we were all on high performance square chutes. There is not a lot you can do until about 20 feet above the treetops, you then line one up and stall into it, whilst keeping your legs firmly crossed by the way !!...........Like I said previous, if you get the fuel and master off, you'll probabily walk away, stuff the aeroplane at that point, that's what insurance is for !..................................................

 

 

[Guest ROM]

The American based Ballistic Recovery Systems [ BRS ] emergency chutes have amaximum 6 year life in the Sport Aircraft configuration.

 

BRS Repack Center - Ballistic Recovery Systems Website

 

Full inflation can occur at an altitude of 260 to 290 feet AGL. [ BRS FAQ's ]

 

[Note: The Cirrus SR20 parachute system is placarded for deployment at 135 knots (155 mph) although it survived dead-weight drops at speeds up to 190 mph even at 125 percent of gross weight.]

 

The European "Galaxy Recovery System; GALAXY HIGH TECHNOLOGY is used in some of the European Sport aircraft.

 

The small single seat, Jabiru 2200 powered, aerobatic, 130 kt max cruise Silence Twister which has just appointed a Ballarat based agent, uses the BRS which is mounted between the firewall and the cockpit.

 

The BRS limits the Twister to a VNE of 150 kts for deployment purposes, down from the 163 Kt VNE with a non BRS equipped Twister.

 

Twister sites; silence twister homepage

 

silence-aircraft

 

 

[Yenn]

Don't know what typr of trees you have but i don't fancy droppong into the eucalypts we have round here, lots of big dead stags and smaller dead limbs, ready to rip through the fuse.

 

 

[bluey the fly]

Yeah Ian, a lot of eucalyptus at least 50ft high. even if you stalled into the top of the trees and didn't get hung up in there you would have a 50ft drop straight to mother earth. I doubt my chance of surviving the 50ft fall, i'd rather float down under a chute, and chances are the chute would be hung up in the trees and cushion the fall.

 

 

[Guest Pioneer200]

We are all trained to fly our aircraft with the view that the engine could fail and we need a place to land.

 

In the few cross countrys I have done around and over the Alps of the South Island I have always planned a route that leaves me over landable terrain if the engine quits,or some other thing forces a landing.

 

From this I see no need for a chute equipped plane,the only reson I would want one is if my worse flying fear happened,flight control failure(loss of pitch,roll,yaw)

 

I am lucky to do 90% of my flying over the Canterbury plains and there is flat land for miles and miles.

 

We do not have to fly over tiger country,we choose to, and choosing to adds to the flying risks.

 

:thumb_up::thumb_up:

 

 

[bluey the fly]

Unfortunately in New South Wales we do not have that luxury. Just to fly out of the Sydney basin can be a little daunting.

 

 

[shags_j]

I did flying training at Sunland (Cirrus distributor for Australia) and while waiting for flight you occasionally hear people talking around the place. Too often I heard comments like "was thinking about popping the chute when the engine turned over..."

 

Made me think. Does the chute cause overreliance? Is a pilot more likely to pop the chute when they would be better off trying to put the aircraft down normally?

 

Just a thought. On the flip side I find passengers more comfortable when they know a chute is on the aircraft.

 

 

[Guest Walter Buschor]

ballistic shutes might be a good last resort but I think they have a fairly high rate of descent ie: vertical speed of as much as 8mts/sec. That of course means that all the shock of crash impact is vertically up the spine where we have very little shock tolerance. Since we are already seated we cannot bend our knees as is the case with skydiving to cushion the impact. The self-destructing airframe will have to take care of this.

 

This is unlike crash-landing where the momentum is forward where we can accept a great deal of deceleration without harm as the forces involved are at right angles to the spine. ( provided we don't get speared by some object ).

 

I would prefer to control a crash and " land " the plane myself .

 

There are of course situations where the chute does have a place ie: at night / airframe failure in flight or pilot suffering heart attack.

 

The shute should always be the last option rather than the first choice

 

safe flying

 

the grey Nomad