To GA or Not to GA... That is the Question!

[Foto_Flyer]

Well, for me it's not really a question at all. I did the GA thing a few years back, didn't quite finish, but am going to continue my journey through RA, cost being a major factor.

 

 

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against GA. I thoroughly enjoyed my GA training and there are certainly a lot of very nice "Toys" to play with if you have the money! You can take more than one friend with you. You can even mix it with 747's in your C152 if you're brave enough (and can afford the landing fees).

 

 

 

But I can't help but feel that most (not all) GA students are on their way to bigger things or have the money for larger/faster aircraft and need the license to be able to fly them. There seems to be very few who, these days, go and get a GA PPL with the intent of just going for a fly for the fun of it. I guess it is a very big financial investment just to go mucking around.

 

 

 

The other thing I find interesting is the general attitude to RA by GA pilots/instructors. Now, I'm not going to name names (so don't ask) but I have a close mate who runs/owns his own flight school and charter operation. On the weekend he flew myself and some others up to the Wide Bay Airshow in his 6 seater twin (note comment above about nice toys above) as his company had a stand at the show. In general discussion, some of the instructors/pilots had a bit to say about the difference between RA and GA, one of which holds an instructor rating in both. The comments ranged from the usual banter about GA pilots being "real" pilots to the difference in skills learnt between the two. Those that expressed the latter pointed to a few "incidents" (most of which I was not witness too) that befell RA aircraft and pilots during the show weekend.

 

 

 

One incident that I did witness was where a multi-seat twin had to perform two "go-around's" due to slower RA aircraft in front. Upon finally landing, the pilot of the twin was after some blood. His rant (while maybe partly justified) included that the pilot of the slower RA aircraft may need to find a good flying school at the show. I must say I was a little disappointed with this attitude and hope that once the "red mist" had settled he was a little more objective. It's a bit like the Mini being followed by the Mack truck. Does the Mini pull off to the side of the road just because it's smaller and slower? But... I digress!

 

 

 

The point of my post is this, do the GA guy's have a point? Is GA training better or does it depend on where that training takes place? From what I can see, there appears to be some schools that provide more in depth instruction than others and that take more of a personal interest in their students than others, in both categories. With instruction being cheaper in RA, is it a matter of you pay for what you get or is it you get better value for your money? Is there merit in going RA and then converting later to GA, with more flying experience?

 

 

 

For me, I've made my decision. But there maybe some out there who might be wondering what is the best option, considering they can afford to do either but are not looking at flying as anything more than a recreational interest.

 

 

 

So it's over to you, especially those who have tried both, who are licensed for both, who enjoy both. What is better as far as the learning experience goes? GA or RA?

 

 

[Guest brentc]

At possibly $10+ a minute in the twin I'm not surprised he was annoyed!

 

 

[Simonflyer]

Fantastic post, and a good question...

 

I am convinced that too much experience is still never enough in aviation, and from my experience's of flying GA and RA, the actual stick and rudder flying is more difficult in the RA planes therefore forcing the pilots of such aircraft to become sharper and speedy with flying technique.RA planes are lighter, more affected by the elements, and take quite a bit more focus when the weather isnt being friendly with xwinds,thermals etc.The bigger heavier GA planes sit beautifully due to inertia and the benefits of being able to load a number of friends and rack off is brilliant.

 

There is a reason it's called Recreational Aviation..It is financially within reach to many more than GA ever could be, and therefore opens up the art and joy of flying to the masses in a way that hasnt been around for a while.I guess thats why RA is having such growth..My prediction is, and you can go back to the GA snipers with this if you like, but within 5-10 years ALL schools will have an RA element to their training, or will at least be using Tecnams, jabirus and newer lighter aircraft of the like to train from ab initio.Its happening already, and it will be all over the place soon enough.

 

The attitudes of the sceptical GA pilots will take some time to dissipate, and in some cases it will never leave, but they can kick and scream and whinge all they like, RA is here to stay, and will only keep growing.I think much of their negativity stems from the bad old(not too distant) days where dodgy home built ultralights were falling out of the sky with regular monotony, and i bet many of them dont have a clue about the new breed of U/L that is safe and sound, factory built, high tech and high performance..

 

There are really good pilots, really poor ones, some in between, some crazy and some flying artists in all kinds of aviation.It doesnt make a difference what and where you fly as long as your having a good time, and looking after yourself and everyone else around you in the air.Thats my opinion anyhow, and surely flying as many different aircraft in as many different situations can only be good for overall safety if safe and thorough training methods are being used..

 

Cheers

 

 

[johnm]

to ga or not to ga

 

yep - good post foto flyer

 

if you go for a career change you should write some physcology text books or something

 

from your post and what has been said before i reckon a determining factor is the quality of the instruction you recieve - this could either be in GA or RA

 

if you can gaurantee good quality instruction in RA than thats going to be the cheaper option and its probably where the most relaxed human beings are

 

I have always reckoned that in GA & RA - there are good and bad instructors, each type are a learning experience in themselves, instructors know heaps more about the theory of flight - cause that's their job, instructors are more current at flying - because we the massess supply them with the hours to be up there flying

 

So if its quality you seek - you do the choosing and don't get an instructor latched on to you that you don't like - find another - GA or RA - the choice is yours

 

 

[Guest Mad Dave]

Having done both, I don't really see there is a difference in the "quality" of what I have been taught, it is just that what is being taught is slightly different.

 

I also think from personal observation that in places where RA and GA traffic mix, that there is just as many examples of good and bad airmanship on both sides, which kind of reinforces my view that there is no difference in the quality of the training, just slight differences in what is taught.

 

As for the bloke in the twin getting shirty with RA traffic at the airshow, did he really expect not to run into a lot af RA traffic there?

 

 

[HEON]

GA has more detail than RAA and thus could be considered better HOWEVER most RAA fly more due to cost and thus become more practiced.

 

As for "obstruction" on landing...Drifters obstruct my LSA. You say he was obstructed by RAA. What do you think the jets think of his twin? Thats life.

 

As for GA being "better"...the nearest I ever came to a mid air crash was a couple of years ago at a CTAF® at Toowoomba in poor conditions with the cloud base at 1000ft AGL, when a 172 came out of the clouds directly in front of me on base leg and landed. My following radio call was enough for an instructor to come out of the local school, which I was going to see by concidence to enquire about a PPL. When I had "a word" with the 172 pilot on the ground...He said he did not know it was a CTAF®, did not have a radio on, and gave the impression he did not know what a CTAF® was! At which point the instructor shook his head and returned to the school! (I must add the 172 pilot was not connected to the school...he wanted fuel co-located next to the school)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Gee, fancy running into other (slow) aircraft at a major flyin, who'd of thought that was possible hey??.. its just incredible how strange things like that can happen when you least expect it..

 

I wasn't there so can't say what happend, but if all the joining and cct rules were followed then its just bad luck that this poor unfortunate twin driver was forced to go around... Thats flying mate...

 

cheers

 

 

[slartibartfast]

From what I read on pprune, the offender did a little more than the usual to draw ire. Something along the lines of making 3 calls per leg, using every taxiway there was, and remaining on 14 instead of expediting his crossing of it despite being asked.

 

This was from the pilot who had to go around.

 

Even if all this were true, the bad part was the immediate jump to "all RA pilots are badly trained". As has been stated, and is my experience, there are good and bad in all walks of flying.

 

The other interesting thread on pprune regarding this topic and Bundy was about Garry Morgan's crash. That was trotted out as another example of poor RA training.

 

As far as I know, Garry was GA trained, and GFA before that. Regardless, he now has thousands of hours experience and an instructor rating. He readily admits he stuffed up and should have gone around. We all make mistakes. Reading the pprune thread (which had to be closed it got so bad), only RA pilots make mistakes.

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

What Pprune thread was that Ross? I wouldn't mind having a read.

 

I think it all comes down to a bit of common dog when in the circuit. I've often been in front of the RFDS PC12 or fire attack air tractor down at Bunbury and said to them that I'll take a long downwind and let them in front. They'll either take that opportunity or reduce speed and stay in behind me. It's just a matter of communication.

 

Really good post Foto.

 

 

[Foto_Flyer]

Slartibartfast is right, hence my comment about the pilot of the twin being "partly justified" in his annoyance. That plus, as BrentC points out, a couple of go-arounds will use more fuel than would have been expected, an expensive exercise.

 

However, as has already been stated, this was effectively a regional show at the home of one of the, if not the biggest RA aircraft manufacter in the country. Of course there are going to be slower RA aircraft attending. (The "offending" aircraft was not a Jab by the way!) And some of the pilots of these aircraft are not going to be used to flying in busy airspace with all sorts of both RA and GA aircraft jockying for a position in the circuit. We knew it, others knew it and I'm sure the pilot of the twin knew it. Therefore, maybe a little more understanding and a slightly more relaxed attitude could have been demonstrated. Yes, if it were me and I was aware of a faster A/C in the circuit, I would probably suggest that I extend that leg (or even continue in the circuit) and let the faster bird in front. The pilot of the RA plane made a decision/s that in hind sight could have been better and he will probably learn from the experience. At the end of the day, everyone landed safely.

 

What annoys me is the conclusion that some (and I stress, some) GA pilots jump to based on one or two bad experiences with RA. This is like saying that all motorcycle riders are "Outlaw Gang Members", all truck drivers are high on "speed", or all 4WD owners "bush bash" and wreck the environment. Yes, there are bad eggs in every group, but they are a minority and the whole shouldn't be judged by the example of these few.

 

That's my 10c worth anyway!

 

 

[slartibartfast]

What Pprune thread was that Ross? I wouldn't mind having a read.

This one goes bad about July 5th and contains both issues. I thought there was another thread but can't see it now.

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

This one[/url] goes bad about July 5th and contains both issues. I thought there was another thread but can't see it now.

Cheers

 

 

[turboplanner]

They've got your number though Slarti - that spotted cat has drawn their attention and they're just waiting for you to stuff up.......

 

Don't get too upset by this guys, GA twin pilots are like crayfish - brains in theor ar*e and a head full of Sh*t.

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

This one[/url] goes bad about July 5th and contains both issues. I thought there was another thread but can't see it now.

I had to stop reading any posts in regards to RAAus aircraft because or the single minded attitude on that site. Think I better go grab a coffee.

 

 

[ahlocks]

From what I read on pprune, the offender did a little more than the usual to draw ire.

From what I read, the offender probably made all the recommended circuit calls and the twin driver misjudged spacing and had to go around. In reality, the thread was a couple of self appointed legends comparing dick sizes and reinforcing their over inflated sense of self worth :csm:....now that would'nt happen in aviation would it?? :Disappointed:

 

Also found it interesting to whom some of the interweb DNA leads.....

 

 

[turboplanner]

Destiny, there are people like that on both sides of the fence.

 

I was blessed with instructors in GA and RA who really stressed the live and let live principle, not getting flustered by someone else doing the wrong thing, and going with the flow of whatever the day brings. Mightn't sound that way from some of my posts, but it does lower the blood pressure, and it does keep you away from incidents.

 

 

[ahlocks]

...live and let live principle, not getting flustered by someone else doing the wrong thing, and going with the flow of whatever the day brings. Mightn't sound that way from some of my posts, but it does lower the blood pressure, and it does keep you away from incidents.

...must be something in the WGA (x2) air that's made him mellow...

 

 

[facthunter]

Adding a bit.

 

I agree with just about everything that has been said. If you walk around "ingognito" and keep your ears open, the common theme is that RAA are a standards disaster. I don't believe that this is the case, but a lot of non-RAAus people are happy to put that view around. Pilots who fly "unprofessionally" give ammunition to that case. and some of the ill considered comments on these forums (at times) provide proof (In their eyes). Be aware that people are watching all the time and they don't all have your interests at heart. Nev

 

 

[slartibartfast]

They've got your number though Slarti - that spotted cat has drawn their attention and they're just waiting for you to stuff up.......

It's up to me to not stuff up then.

 

Actually, I took this as concern for my welfare.

 

Funny though, all the RAAus staff thought it was me. I set them straight, then half an hour later, Mick Poole came over and asked me how my noseleg was (bit personal). I assured him it wasn't me.

 

He then wanted to know all the details I knew, because he watched the whole thing happen while standing with 2 pilot examiners. Garry could have picked a much better time to find out about loading too much gear too aft.

 

Judging by the snoring coming from the bunk below me on Sunday night, Garry got over it. The Sierra is fixed already too. Just waiting on a new oil cooler to be shipped.

 

 

[Yenn]

I doubt that the RAAus pilot who balked the twin would have done any good by giving way and going round. next time he would have balked someone else.

 

In a lot of cases RAAus and GA pilots are flying the same aircraft, such a sJabs and even my Corby, so the plane makes no difference.

 

My personal opinion is that GA pilots get a better theory grounding, especially in areas that RAAus pilots never go, such as night or instrument flight and controlled airspace, and that RAAus pilots tend to be better drivers. Pretty obvious when you see the crosswind component at Bundy. I spoke to a GA pilot who reckoned he nearly lost it, while my taildragger arrival was no problem.

 

 

[facthunter]

generalising.

 

There is no doubt that it requires more flying feel and control, flying the lighter aircraft. All VH pilots would notice this to some extent depending on their background. and adaptability. RAAus pilots don't have to feel inferior in that respect. Some of the "put down" is just good old common garden variety snobbery. You can be sure of one thing, You are getting more bang for your buck... Nev.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Slarti, Gary's experience is very timely, and as embarrassing is it might be to him, it will serve to warn others just how tight the envelope can be (along the lines that if someone like him can run out of elevator authority, a freshly graduated pilot needs to REALLY check every proposed flight.)

 

I'm building up a mythical aircraft - the Falcon, which hopefully will become unflyable at a much lower out of balance not to fly - for some P&O theory)

 

 

[facthunter]

Out of CG range.

 

I have had ONE (and that is enough) experience of rearward Cof G excursion and lucky to survive it. IF you have had a tailplane stall you will know what I am talking of. If you haven't, have a think about it and make sure you don't go there. The aeroplane tail will LOWER when the stick is pushed forward. TOTALLY pitch unstable and you will be lucky to survive it. If Gary Morgan had this situation he was lucky not to bend it big time. I am happy to discuss it with him privately. Nev

 

 

[Guest Walter Buschor]

Having flown Ga in the past and Ra in the present I do think that the Ra pilot has ( probably ) better flying skills and in my observation will conduct himself ( mostly )

 

better in non controlled airspace and ctaf's.

 

I have never had any confusion with other Ra planes in a circuit as they all behave in a predictable and controlled manner but I have had 2 cases where GA planes forced their way without as much as even a radio call.

 

This is however no indication of the GA culture .

 

I suspect that there might just be a little jelousy on the GA part.

 

( who in their right mind would fly a plane recreationally that is 40years plus , costs more to hire , and is often slower unless one requires more than 2 seats ).

 

It is of course a different story when going commercial.

 

with the boundarys between Ra and Ga shrinking and Ra growing like cancer Ga will just have to get over it and accept us for what we are - a tumor that cannot be removed - .

 

safe flying

 

the grey Nomad

 

 

[turboplanner]

Walter, I wouldn't say there is a general resentment from GA - a lot of GA guys regularly choose to participate in this site - they fly recreationally and have a common interest - just look at the photos of RA Fly Ins, and we have a number of guys who fly both.

 

There's about the same percentage of bigotry in flyers as there is in the general community.