Guest burbles1 Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 I'm getting close to taking my flying test for the Pilot's Certificate - but with the training I've received I don't feel quite ready for it, and I'm asking for more advanced and extensive training than seems to be offered as standard for RA-Aus requirements. I'm lucky to have done most of my training at a GAAP to get familiar with ATC, albeit only in the circuit, but I know I need more experience there as I'm still not comfortable following sequencing instructions, inbound calls etc. Lately I've been training at another airfield (non-towered) and can't help thinking how valuable that compulsory training at a GAAP would be so that students (and then new pilots) are better equipped to deal with aircraft movements at busy aerodromes. It is all too easy to do all your training at a non-towered aerodrome then once you get your Certificate, you're let loose anywhere within 25nm of any aerodrome. What happens if you're not familiar with busy areas? To my knowledge, there is no checking/training process in the RA-Aus syllabus where pilots can be familiarised with GAAP procedures - I know that pilots can broadcast in an inbound call to ATC that they are unfamiliar with an aerodrome, but is this enough? Dave
motzartmerv Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Well, technically, you can't fly into a GAAP without a PPL (or SPL).. So why would the RAA syllabus cover things that are illegal?? Who's ur instructor at Gostner's??
Guest burbles1 Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Ahh... you've told me something I didn't know - I was under the assumption that because I'd trained dual at a GAAP, I'd be able to fly there once I have the certificate. So does RA-Aus consider a GAAP as controlled airspace then? What if I get a CTA endorsement - can I fly into a GAAP then?
motzartmerv Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 I wouldn't be holding my breath on the CTA endo.. But, you can fly into GAAP with an SPL. even if you are in an RAA rego'd aircraft.. Oh, and yes, when the CTA endo does come out () you will be able to, after you get this endo of course.. cheers
Guest burbles1 Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Beaudy...I knew there'd have to be a good reason why I got my SPL - I'll be putting it to good use!
Guest Graham Lea Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 I wouldn't be holding my breath on the CTA endo.. But, you can fly into GAAP with an SPL. even if you are in an RAA rego'd aircraft.. Oh, and yes, when the CTA endo does come out () you will be able to, after you get this endo of course..cheers Don't you need an instructor with you to fly into Camden with a ppl students licence - which I have had for several years now? Interesting! Graham
motzartmerv Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Graham, no you don't.. Your SPL would need to be current ie medical.. But you can PIC into GAAP quite legally with it.. cheers
Guest burbles1 Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 So if you can PIC into a GAAP, then presumably you don't need authorisation from an senior instructor/CFI to undertake a flight from that GAAP (given an RA certificate plus a current SPL)?
Ultralights Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 has anyone got a reference for that SPL holder solo flight in GAAP? my CAO's are back at the airport..
Ultralights Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 nahh thats not fire, its the Solid rocket boosters i fitted....climbs like the preverbial cat with a rockets up its bum... :)
Yenn Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 I think training in a controlled airspace is a good thing, that is where I started and flew for years, but I havn't flown there for over 15 years and I think I would get culture shock if I did now.
Guest The Tote Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 I wouldn't be holding my breath on the CTA endo.. But, you can fly into GAAP with an SPL. even if you are in an RAA rego'd aircraft.. Oh, and yes, when the CTA endo does come out () you will be able to, after you get this endo of course..cheers I am training out of Moorabbin and have been told that to fly solo in a Raa aircraft in the control zone you must hold a PPL at minimum, not a SPL. A holder of a SPL can only fly solo in the control zone in a VH reg'd aircraft.
Guest basscheffers Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 I think training in a controlled airspace is a good thing, that is where I started and flew for years, but I havn't flown there for over 15 years and I think I would get culture shock if I did now. Depends; 15 years ago, did they make it up as they went along as they do now? Maybe it just seems that way because of my inexperience, but being told to hold at Grange Jetty when Grange Jetty is not a VFR waypoint and not marked on the VTC seems rather odd. (We knew where it was, but an interstate visitor most likely wouldn't; "abeam Football Park might have been more descriptive)
turboplanner Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Depends; 15 years ago, did they make it up as they went along as they do now? Not sure about the timing, but no they didn't. It was much clearer with a lot more certainty and it was simpler. I had all the applicable documents for the whole of Australia - too many to carry with you, but they didn't fill a single drawer of the filing cabinet. Some time after the mid '80's Dot pulled the pin on areas where they wewre obviously exposed to Public Liability - full reporting etc (where position accuracy was down to 2 mins and realy kept you on your toes with navigation skills). The pilots screamed that this would cause a massive increase in fatalities etc and certainly there's a healthy volume per year, but I've never done the comparison myself. Incidentally the cause of it all in Australia was a double fatality at a South Australian kindergarten (where the teachers were ultimately found to be innocent).
turboplanner Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 As part of our training, we would fly into Essendon, and could fly into Tullamarine, and I guess you guys could have trained into West Beach.
Matt Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 The Tote has it right...and is presumably training with my old mate Kris. To fly RA-Aus rego'd aircraft in a control zone (Class A-D) you need a PPL as minimum, an SPL is not sufficient. As usual, refer to the regulations and not "hearsay": reference is CAO95.55 Section 5.2 (d). http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/orders/cao95/9555.pdf
Guest Qwerty Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 I am training out of Moorabbin and have been told that to fly solo in a Raa aircraft in the control zone you must hold a PPL at minimum, not a SPL.A holder of a SPL can only fly solo in the control zone in a VH reg'd aircraft. My understanding, advice from CFI, is that you need a PPL (minimum) to fly in controlled air space (including GAAP). Students fly in controlled airspace with an SPL, and this next bit is the important bit, UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF AN INSTRUCTOR even when they are solo. To fly an RAA reg aircraft in controlled airspace you need the following, and I know because I've done the resarch and I do this frequently and legally. PPL, with current medical Radio Certified transponder Certified altimeter Recognised aero engine, eg Rotax, jabiru. not VW. not Subaru You also will need an ASIC or the tarmac terriers will come and throw their weight around. I hope this helps, Cheers.
Matt Posted July 13, 2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Can I recommend that if we are going to quote regs to put a link and refer the source document rather than potentially mis-quote...i.e. "recognised aero engine" is not what the regulation states, it also doesn't list the engines. What the regulation states, as per the link to the source in my previous post is: 5.2 An aeroplane may be flown inside Class A, B, C and D airspace only if all of the following conditions are complied with: (a) the aeroplane is certificated to the design standards specified in section 101.55 or meets the criteria specified in paragraph 21.024 (1) (a) or 21.026 (1) (a), or regulation 21.186, of CASR 1998; (b) the aeroplane is fitted with an engine of a kind to which paragraph 6.1 of section 101.55 of the Civil Aviation Orders applies, or that CASA has approved as being suitable for use in an aircraft to which this section applies, and is not subject to any conditions that would prevent the flight; © the aeroplane is fitted with a radio capable of two-way communication with Air Traffic Control; (d) the aeroplane is flown by the holder of a valid pilot licence (not being a student pilot licence): (i) issued under Part 5 of the Regulations; and (ii) that allows the holder to fly inside the controlled airspace; (e) the pilot has satisfactorily completed an aeroplane flight review in accordance with regulation 5.81, 5.108 or 5.169 of the Regulations; (f) if the controlled airspace in which the aeroplane is operating requires a transponder to be fitted — the aeroplane I don't want to upset anyone, but these are legal documents which prescribe flying operations and mis-quoting or incorrect interpretation could lead to confusion. There is nothing you need to know about flying regulations that isn't in one of the various manuals/orders/publications. If / when you ask your instructor for information, ask for the reference as well as the information. Learn to fish.
Guest Qwerty Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 Can I recommend that if we are going to quote regs to put a link and refer the source document rather than potentially mis-quote...i.e. "recognised aero engine" is not what the regulation states, it also doesn't list the engines. What the regulation states, as per the link to the source in my previous post is: 5.2 An aeroplane may be flown inside Class A, B, C and D airspace only if all of the following conditions are complied with: (a) the aeroplane is certificated to the design standards specified in section 101.55 or meets the criteria specified in paragraph 21.024 (1) (a) or 21.026 (1) (a), or regulation 21.186, of CASR 1998; (b) the aeroplane is fitted with an engine of a kind to which paragraph 6.1 of section 101.55 of the Civil Aviation Orders applies, or that CASA has approved as being suitable for use in an aircraft to which this section applies, and is not subject to any conditions that would prevent the flight; © the aeroplane is fitted with a radio capable of two-way communication with Air Traffic Control; (d) the aeroplane is flown by the holder of a valid pilot licence (not being a student pilot licence): (i) issued under Part 5 of the Regulations; and (ii) that allows the holder to fly inside the controlled airspace; (e) the pilot has satisfactorily completed an aeroplane flight review in accordance with regulation 5.81, 5.108 or 5.169 of the Regulations; (f) if the controlled airspace in which the aeroplane is operating requires a transponder to be fitted — the aeroplane I don't want to upset anyone, but these are legal documents which prescribe flying operations and mis-quoting or incorrect interpretation could lead to confusion. There is nothing you need to know about flying regulations that isn't in one of the various manuals/orders/publications. If / when you ask your instructor for information, ask for the reference as well as the information. Learn to fish. Matt, You are 100% correct. I offered the preceding interpretation to aid understanding. My contribution was clearly identified as advice from my CFI and is as close as verbatim as memory allows. If I may make an observation, a. It would seem, I suggest, that my CFI was correct insofar as he went. b. For your inclusion of the text of the regs to be of much real use, the referenced clauses should also be quoted, ie. Section 101.55, paragraph 21.024 (1) (a), 21.026 (1) (a) etc AND any and all subsequent references should also be included. The quote as it stands is not definative guidance. So we have a situation where 1. One can provide a general outline as I did therby facilitating a simple decision. For example; I dont have a (insert PPL or certified transponder or radio as appropriate) I therefore cannot fly in controled air space. Or further example; I meet all these requirements and I'd like to fly in controlled air space and I am a competant pilot I will therefore look into this further. 2. One can provide an exerpt from the regs which in isolation are not much better that meaningless 3. One can simply provide a referance and leave it at that but we all know that all the answera are in the regs, AIP etc. Again, not much better that meaningless. I submit that there is a place for general comment. I agree that significant value is added to any comment by referencing it as I did when I referenced my CFI. This places the information in context and presupposes the use to which it might be put. cheers.
Guest Cloudsuck Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 Can I recommend that if we are going to quote regs to put a link and refer the source document rather than potentially mis-quote...i.e. "recognised aero engine" is not what the regulation states, it also doesn't list the engines. Nice post Matt, and it seems that even Instructors on this fourm and elsewhere could do with a refresher on how to drive the legislation. As far as engines go, 101.55 Sect 6.1 states:- 6 ENGINE 6.1 Engine Requirements. One of the following conditions must be satisfied in relation to the engine installed in the aeroplane: (a) the engine is of a type to which a certificate of type approval under this subsection applies; (b) the engine is of a type that has been certified as an aircraft engine in accordance with FAR 33, BCAR C or JAR E; © the engine is of a type that has been approved by CASA as being appropriate for use in aeroplanes to which this section applies. Based on that above, Jabs and Rotax 912's are in and as qwerty suggests, VW and Subaru etc are out. At the end of the day, forgetting about all that stuff and going back to the original post, once Burbles gets his RAA Pilot Cert, he is out of GAAP flying till he gets a PPL.
Guest Qwerty Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 Some more hangar folk law for Cloudsuck Y' c'n fly a Drifter in to a GAAP aerodrome if y'v got a ppl and a radio. Source; Unattributed. Is this piece of wisdom accurate??? I suspect it is.
Guest Cloudsuck Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 Some more hangar folk law for CloudsuckY' c'n fly a Drifter in to a GAAP aerodrome if y'v got a ppl and a radio. Source; Unattributed. Is this piece of wisdom accurate??? I suspect it is. The guy I bought my Drifter off (55 registered and factory built) was an airline pilot. He fitted it with a transponder and used to get a clearance from the Gold Coast through Cooly to Ballina. Of course the clearance was always; "costal, over water not above 500" :thumb_up: On another note, I had just returned from Archerfireld in the Teccie the other day and had a guy in the hangar say to me, "I heard (Folk Law) that any untralight and ultalight pilot can fly into Archerfield providing you are low on fuel, is that correct?" It seemed he had an ulterior motive for being in the area and low on fuel... I strongly suggested that he not do this.
turboplanner Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 Qwerty, we shouldn't get to the ridiculous, but be aware that most of the queries (a) could have been answered by the person's Instructor or CFI, (b) could have been answered by studying the material they were supposed to be studying for their qualifications. That leaves motive, and I suspect some queries are to get support to do what they know they shouldn't do. And if that's not enough there are the slanted questions designed to provoke people. It certainly helps if you can provide a link, but you often wouldn't get on the trail of an answer if everyone had to qualify everything they said. No one should ever make a major commitment to safety or expenditure based on what they read on a forum - it may well be true, but it's better to check it out at the source.
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