GAAP training for the Pilot's Certificate

[motzartmerv]

So, from those reg's, if im reading them properly, you can fly out of camden, in an ultralight, under CFI supervision??..With a SPL??..

 

I appolagise for not being clear,, we have always been able to send people solo in the GAAP at camden provided they hold a SPL. The thing is that ALL flights have to be authorized by an instructor (at our school) or the CFI.. So that begs the question, what constitutes "supervision"??.. The chief or instructor HAVE to sign out every flight, regardless of the status of the control zone and regardless of the aircraft or flight details and licence or certificates of the pilots..

 

 

[Yenn]

Please spare my ignorance but what is an SPL?

 

 

[perthjay85]

its a Student Pilot License

 

 

[Ultralights]

So, from those reg's, if im reading them properly, you can fly out of camden, in an ultralight, under CFI supervision??..With a SPL??..

thats what i read, but the CFI has to be a GA CFI. could be wrong though. or the instructor is a grade 2 or higher, eg, authorised to Supervise solo flight

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

5.2 An aeroplane may be flown inside Class A, B, C and D airspace only if all of

 

the following conditions are complied with:

 

blah blah blah

 

(d) the aeroplane is flown by the holder of a valid pilot licence (not being a

 

student pilot licence):

 

The SPL is NOT a valid pilot licence for flying a RA registered aircraft within controlled airspace including a GAAP under any circumstances. Not under the supervision of a GA CFI, a grade 2 instrutor, the Prime Minister or god etc.... Remember we are talking about flying an RA registered aircraft.

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

Ok, I got an email saying Merv had replied to my last post but I can't see it here. It may have been moderated out but that is ok, I didn't take offence to it at all.

 

Merv said, " Can a student (SPL)fly an aircraft in controlled airspace?? according to the reg you so boldly posted they can't... So how do they get any solo time in a GAAP or class C??...."

 

A SPL relates to a GA Student Licence and they can do all of the usual training in a GAAP in GA aircraft and solo under supervision etc as per Merv's post but not in a RA-Aus aircraft.

 

My further understanding is this, for a Student RA-Aus pilot to train in a GAAP (like Camden and some others in Tassie etc), the GAAP its self has an exemption to allow that or a school has an exemption to operate in a GAAP, I can't remember which one. You certainally can't do RA-Aus training at Archerfield and I'm pretty sure not Bankstown either.

 

However, the day the Student RA-Aus pilot (who just did 25 hours in a GAAP under some exemption), passes his flight test and gets his RA-Aus pilot certificate, he is not allowed to fly into a GAAP without a PPL.

 

P.S. I'm all good now Merv, I had a hot Milo and a lie down :thumb_up:

 

 

[Ultralights]

Yes you can do your RAAus training at Bankstown, we are based there, though we are all GA and RAAus licenced instructors. only we cant let you go Solo there, hence we use Wollongong or Camden on weekdays. we are still waiting on an exemtion to allow solo flights for RAAus students in Bankstown, but seeing as its taken over a year already, i fear the CTA endo will be in before the exemption... considering what we pay to CASA, i would at least thought someone there was able to make at least 1 decision a year.

 

:kboom:

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Cloudsuck - MM self-moderated. He deleted his own post. Had his post been moderated, you would have been in breach of site rules by posting a quote from a moderated post. Please be careful.

 

I have been very impressed by the level of maturity around here lately. There have been some hotly debated topics, but no personal attacks and nary an ego to be seen.

 

Well done all.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea, i pulled my post.. I didn't wanna start a blue.. And indeed after i had posted, i realised cloud was talking about something else. Albeit the same topic..

 

The school i was with would send RAA guys solo with an SPL out of camden all the time, and i took that as the norm, but after clouds last post i remember something about dispensation being sought by the school..

 

Cloud, no probs mate.. as always your knowladge of the rules and regs is better then most... :thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

No worries Merv / Ultralights, I think that once the CTA endorsements come in, the guys like 'burbles' who trained at GAAPs will be at an advantage over the guys who trained in CTAFs. They will most likely pick up Class C and D procedures a little quicker and not be so scared of ATC controllers.

 

 

[Guest terry]

However, the day the Student RA-Aus pilot (who just did 25 hours in a GAAP under some exemption), passes his flight test and gets his RA-Aus pilot certificate, he is not allowed to fly into a GAAP without a PPL.

 

I think this is not the case. I was told by cfi of a school that operates with an exemption that I could fly from their airport hiring their jabiru with him signing me in and out.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just what do you CFI's tell your students?

 

Why do they continually come here with queries?

 

Why don't they talk to you?

 

Burbles:

 

"I'm getting close to taking my flying test for the Pilot's Certificate - but with the training I've received I don't feel quite ready for it, and I'm asking for more advanced and extensive training than seems to be offered as standard for RA-Aus requirements."

 

Burbles, in my opinion the RAA instructors, and the aircraft will give you a much better grounding in aircraft handling, reading a windsock, being sure you can get down from the circuit area if an engine fails than GA flying at City circuits where the action is dictated by the need to communicate, and position the aircraft for separation, someone elses decides which runway to use and you pretty much always land directly into wind.

 

You make a good point because flying at a city airport is a whole different ballgame, with rapid communication skills to be learnt, strategic positioning of the aircraft at all times, flying a circuit at the exact height, flying THE circuit rather than YOUR circuit, and above all else learning the judgement and skill of threading - fitting in to a moving stream of aircraft all travelling at different speeds and judging it so you don't have to go round and you don't cause anyone else to.

 

Having had experience at both, I see it as two separate skill sets.

 

If you want to build the second skill set, and that is commendable, I wouldn't suggest trying to find a crack in the system which would let you do it in an RAA aircraft, but put in a few hours in a GA Aircraft with a GA Instructor from that airfield.

 

That will build the knowledge you seemed to be asking for.

 

The RAA Pilot Certificate simply indicates you can handle an aircraft, and is really beginning to worry me so I certainly wouldn't have any expectation of being 'turned loose'.

 

 

[poteroo]

Why does anyone honestly want to go into GAAP airports and be slugged with exorbitant fees, be messed about en route, be frightened spitless at being unable to interpret the language, and being unable to park anywhere except in an unusable sandpit?? When I did my last renewal at Jandakot, we achieved 3 circuits in 43 mins engine running time using rwy 12.....the ATO finally gave up in utter desperation!

 

Apart from the regs quoted above, there are other things that also count here:

 

1) both encoder and altimeter must be signed off - RAD 47 applies... 'certified' means currently so - not whether it's TSO or not.

 

2) COM must be working well...or you'll be refused entry at 1st contact - poor radios or headsets are a health hazard!!

 

3) your PPL must be medical & BFR current - CASA ramp checks are common.

 

4) your VTC must be current and with you - ramp checks are common

 

5) you must use the indicated routes/directions,altitudes and reporting points - it won't help the cause for there to be more near misses.

 

6) you need one very clean windscreen... that might not be a squished blowfly - it could be a Kazakstan Eastern stude coming the wrong way !!!

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest brentc]

No transponder required for GAAP !!!!!!!

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Why does anyone honestly want to go into GAAP airports and be slugged with exorbitant fees, be messed about en route, be frightened spitless at being unable to interpret the language, and being unable to park anywhere except in an unusable sandpit?? When I did my last renewal at Jandakot, we achieved 3 circuits in 43 mins engine running time using rwy 12.....the ATO finally gave up in utter desperation!Apart from the regs quoted above, there are other things that also count here:

 

1) both encoder and altimeter must be signed off - RAD 47 applies... 'certified' means currently so - not whether it's TSO or not.

 

2) COM must be working well...or you'll be refused entry at 1st contact - poor radios or headsets are a health hazard!!

 

3) your PPL must be medical & BFR current - CASA ramp checks are common.

 

4) your VTC must be current and with you - ramp checks are common

 

5) you must use the indicated routes/directions,altitudes and reporting points - it won't help the cause for there to be more near misses.

 

6) you need one very clean windscreen... that might not be a squished blowfly - it could be a Kazakstan Eastern stude coming the wrong way !!!

 

happy days,

I use airports in CTA and CTA because I want to and this is what flying is all about. Here are a few examples.

 

Pick up my girlfriend from Archerfield to fly back to Tas.

 

Visit brother who lives 2 min drive from Essendon.

 

Visit mate who lives 15 min drive from Bankstown.

 

Transit every CTA on the east coast from Melbourne to Port Douglas because its safer and there are better views esp Victor 1, the Gold Coast, Bris.

 

Pick up fuel in Rockhampton

 

Visit mate in Mackay.

 

Visit local aero club in Launceston.

 

Need I go on.....using CTA is a privilege, a pleasure and its handy.

 

There has been some comment that entering CTA is difficult, that the flying is hard or that controllers are scary. I can assure you that with the right training (and its not hard) use of CTA is a piece of cake. The controllers are employed specifically to help us and that is what they do. I have fallen foul one controller once only, and when I got on the ground I was on the phone to him and sorted him out, I think he was having a bad day, it was busy and I turned up asking for ATIS (airport terminal information service, which is wind, GNH etc,) and he spat it.

 

When in ATC under a controller's instruction there is an almost overwhelming temptation to adopt the attitude that "its the controllers job to provide separation so I can relax my lookout". This ofcourse is wrong but is is EXACTLY the mindset that I expect would develop if radios were manditory which is one reason why they will never be manditory.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Why didn't you just call up the ATIS frequency?

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Why didn't you just call up the ATIS frequency?

Do you really want to know, its a boring story....on second thoughts it my be useful information for someone.

 

I fly around, (and in and out of) Launceston. The terrain here is hilly all around with a range of significant mountains to the east. I have trouble receiving ATIS when I am low (even within line of sight or the transmitter) and simply cannot get it on the ground at a mates place inside CTA. So I make an inbound call and request clearance and advise "negative ATIS". As I said on this day, the controller spat it so I decided to do some research. I spoke to a mate who is an electronics and radio expert.

 

It turns out that the combination of hilly terrain, low (even moderately low) altitude and aerial tuning all will effect reception. Evidently the aerial will be tuned for "mid-range frequencies" on the radio and L'ton ATIS is 134.75 which is toward the top end so the radio is operating inefficiently.

 

I get around this problem by doing things a bit differently, I approach L'ton with some height and tune in for ATIS quite late (about 4Nm from CTA), I then can't make my call early, but it usually still gives them at least a full minute to issue the clearance. This seems to work but if I needed ATIS I would have no hesitation whatsoever in getting on to them and asking for it. It is their job to look after us, its what they are there for.

 

I hope that this info is usefull to someone.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I wasn't just asking out of idle curiosity.

 

Launceston, one of the most beautiful airports in Australia, certainly has a laid back atmosphere on a sunny afternoon, with very little traffic, so what I'm about to describe may not necessarily apply there.

 

The tower tasks are usually split between ground traffic, logging where you are going etc, and air traffic with a controller or two in the tower with binoculars etc, trying to ensure aircraft separation.

 

I'm guessing the ATIS is updated and reset by the ground guy, and you are expected to have it before you start to contact the air guys, so an inbound radio request from a pilot may come at a time where the Air guy is under high stress with commercial traffic inbound, and cannot spare the time to talk to or phone the ground guy (remember they are not on the same frequency, and its possible the ground guy is not even located in the tower), for someone who didn't get the ATIS data.

 

If I had the technical issue you have, and was that close (where the ATIS will be current at the time you leave), I would phone up the arrivals/departures guy and get it on the phone.

 

I'll admit this advice is based on speculation, but I think it would take the steam out of it for you if it did.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Why does anyone honestly want to go into GAAP airports and be slugged with exorbitant fees

Parafield charges no fees for ultralights. I guess they can't be bothered. Might change if more of us show up, but it will still be in the single-digit dollars.

 

be messed about en route, be frightened spitless at being unable to interpret the language

After saying "<me> Outer harbour 1500 inbound received <atis>", you have trouble interpreting "maintain 1500 track midfield downwind 21R", "cleared visual approach" and "cleared to land"?

 

and being unable to park anywhere except in an unusable sandpit??

Lots of nice grass here for visitors!

 

When I did my last renewal at Jandakot, we achieved 3 circuits in 43 mins engine running time using rwy 12.....the ATO finally gave up in utter desperation!

Maybe not all GAAPs are created equal. I hear lots of complaints about Jandakot. At YPPF delays are uncommon, I never have to wait for circuits. The only delays are from ADL approach going into their charlie airspace.

 

1) both encoder and altimeter must be signed off - RAD 47 applies... 'certified' means currently so - not whether it's TSO or not.

Not needed for GAAP as long as you enter from class G. I asked Mick Poole about this and he confirmed it won't be needed when we get CTA. You still need the full endorsement, which means training in class C using a transponder equipped aircraft.

 

2) COM must be working well...or you'll be refused entry at 1st contact - poor radios or headsets are a health hazard!!

You should hear some of the radios here!

 

3) your PPL must be medical & BFR current - CASA ramp checks are common.

A what check? What's that? Seriously, I have asked some old boys here and nobody ever gets ramp checked.

 

4) your VTC must be current and with you - ramp checks are common

$22/year, that's very hard to afford and organise, I know.

 

5) you must use the indicated routes/directions,altitudes and reporting points - it won't help the cause for there to be more near misses.

That is a fair point, but damned if you do, damned if you don't. Aircraft flying in from all directions into a circuit with 5 already would be a hazard too.

I can't speak for Jandakot, but Parafield is quite a civilised affair. No delays, no exuberant charges, no grumpy controllers and easy to get in and out.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

GAAP'S will shortly all become class D which will be very interesting for everyone.

 

 

[poteroo]

Which will probably change TXP,engine and endo requirements to those for CTA.

 

This is to happen by April, 2010...not that far away.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Matt]

So...have been reading, thinking and talking with "people in the know"...has anyone else picked up on the fact that the regulations we've been discussion clearly talk about Class A, B, C and D...there's no mention of GAAP...and GAAP is neither Class A, B, C or D....

 

 

[Yenn]

There has been talk of a deficiency in RAAus training and this seems to pick up on that. I have never heard a GA trained pilot whingeing about all the requirement for going into GAAp or controlled airspace. They are brought up with it and never think it would be different.

 

Not having flown GA for over ten years I can see it from an RAAus point of view, but if I wanted to fly with the big boys, all I would do is get myself current with the requirements and do it.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

It won't matter soon Matt if I understand correctly!

 

"The Director of Aviation Safety has also announced CASA will require that all GAAP aerodromes will be moving towards Class D air traffic control, by 21 April 2010, better harmonising arrangements in Australia with the current International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) airspace classification system. "

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Exactly Brentc,

 

The General Aviation Aerodrome Procedure (GAAP) is purely an Australian invention which replaced the old "Secondary Control Zone" in order to supposably free up procedures into and out of these (at the time) high density airports..the trouble being that there is no real equilavent in the ICAO airspace classification system. With the occurance of mid-airs at most of these GAAPS since their inception, it simply is a system that has some flaws in it, the only clearances required in a GAAP are the ones to take off and land, the rest in simple report and track according to set procedures. In a Class D airspace scenario, there is an airspace clearance requirement as well as procedural/position reporting. This is all outlined in the VFG (controlled airspace procedures) and will make interesting reading for those who are contemplating flyng away from the paddock. Class D airspace and its Air Traffic Controllers do not rely on RADAR for seperation, hence the position reporting.