about Preflight check

[DarkSarcasm]

Hi all,

 

I'm a new student, whose only been flying for a few months - this is my first post here actually. I've recently started doing the pre-flight checks myself and I have a few (probably stupid) questions:

 

1. When I go out to do the check, my instructor tells me that he'll follow me out in about 5-10 minutes. By the time he comes out, I've usually been through the check about 2-3 times. Is it meant to take 5-10 minutes and I'm being fast (and perhaps missing things) or is he just giving me lots of time to do it in?

 

2. Are you meant to dip the fuel tanks during each preflight, or just during the first of the day? I do the fuel drain to check for water etc, but I'm not sure whether I'm meant to dip the tanks as well. I'm flying a Jabiru J160, are the little bits sticking up on top of the wings the fuel tank lids? Also, I'm fairly short, does anyone have any tips for short pilots when dipping tanks?

 

3. When checking all the different control surfaces (like ailerons, elevator etc), I can move the ailerons and the elevator (to check movement) but not the rudder. I'm assuming that's because the rudder is harder to move in general, is that right or is it just because I'm weak?

 

Any help anyone can give me would be appreciated :) I keep thinking I should stick L-plates to the windscreen of the plane....

 

 

[Yenn]

Darky. You are on the right track, but I think you should talk to your instructor to find out exactly what you should be looking for.

 

Not being a Jab driver I can't help, but you are most likely correct about the things on top of the wings. It is always prudent to check fuel contents before any flight, you never know, a leak may have developed. Try moving the rudder by hand and you should feel if anything has come adrift. When you move the pedals, you should see the rudder move, even if you have to lean out of the door.

 

If you ever have any problems ask the instructor. It is better to be thought an idiot, by asking questions than to confirm your idiocy by not getting help and training.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

cheers, thanks for your reply :) I'm still trying to get around my perfectionist tendencies (which only show up at odd times, not with uni work or anything career-related oddly enough) and ask more questions. I know it's for my own good to ask questions, and I will definitely ask about this at my next lesson.

 

As for now, I've temporarily grounded myself due to a cold (sigh), so the questions will have to wait for next week.

 

 

[slartibartfast]

What Yenn said - ask your instructor. Also, remember the nose wheel is linked to the pedals for steering in the Jab. While the nose is on the ground, you can't move them without trying to move the training wheel.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

I didn't actually realise that about the pedals and the wheel. So, in the Jab on the ground, the pedals are linked to both the wheel and the rudder? So if you try to physically move the rudder (by actually trying to move the rudder fin), it tries to move the wheel as well?

 

Thanks for all your replies :)

 

 

[GraemeK]

Are you meant to dip the fuel tanks during each preflight, or just during the first of the day? I do the fuel drain to check for water etc, but I'm not sure whether I'm meant to dip the tanks as well.

If you're only in the training area, or doing circuits, go by the gauges in the wings. For cross-country, have a look in the tanks to make sure! Ask your instructor if you can help him refuel - it's something you should know how to do!

 

The water check is legally only required for first flight of the day or after refuelling - but it's good practice to do it as part of your preflight.

 

I take my time over the preflight - I'll often find something to mention to the instructor (he probably thinks I'm a bit picky, but there ya go!). If I've finished before he arrives, I usually amuse myself fixing up the Dynon .........

 

Oh, and welcome to the forum - good to see another YLIL student here .

 

 

[perthjay85]

hey there DarkSarcasm.

 

I have myself only recently learnt to fly. and yes i have been taught to check the fuel levels manually with the dipstick prior to every flight i do. for the sake of 1 minute it could save your life. Also check the tanks for water from the inspection point before every flight and i do it after every flight, and also if there is a test point nearest the engine.

 

my pre flights usually take about 5-10 minutes as i move slowly around the aircraft.

 

also when you have a cold speak to your instructor about it as they may still take you up. I recently went up did a circuit to check that pressure build up wasnt going to be a problem and i was fine. we then went to the training area and practised engine failures

 

good luck and keep it up

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Hi all,

 

Thanks for the replies. I'll definitely ask my instructor about it next lesson. Right now we're only in the training area, but it's good to get into the habit of checking it before I (eventually) start doing cross-country.

 

I'm assuming it isn't a bad thing that I don't find things wrong to mention to the Instructor? Since it's a training aircraft, I like to think that if there was anything wrong someone else would have found it already, so it's not a bad thing that I don't find anything... To be honest, I'm not confident enough yet in how things are supposed to look, to really realise if something was wrong (unless it was something really obvious).

 

And Hi Graeme, nice to hear from someone else at Lilydale :)

 

 

[Guest Mad Dave]

G'day DS,

 

All the guys at Lilydale are really easy to get along with , and I am sure none of them will bite your head off for asking questions, so ask heaps, the only way to know if something is right or wrong is to ask!! (you are paying them to teach you).

 

Who are you flying with?

 

Dave

 

 

[GraemeK]

Hi DS

 

The way I approach my preflight inspection is to mention anything that looks unusual to the instructor - that way I'll hopefully learn what's important and what's not. I'd be careful of assuming someone else has already picked it up, because if everyone did that we'd be in trouble! Sometimes I've picked up stupid things, but that's learning and no need to feel embarrassed.

 

Love your blog - great stuff! Have you seen this one?

 

Hope to meet you at YLIL sometime - my next lesson is Monday morning.

 

Cheers

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Hey Dave, I'm flying with Jeremy. :)

 

Graeme, I might see you there sometime. I was meant to fly today, but cancelled because of a cold (I've heard about bursting eardrums etc and decided to err on the side of caution...). My next lesson is Saturday 25th.

 

I have perfectionist tendencies, which make me feel like I should remember everything and get it right the first time. I keep telling myself that isn't true and everyone askes questions, and I'm slowly getting around it :P Unfortunately these perfectionist tendencies don't show up about really important things, like university and my future career...

 

 

[perthjay85]

Hey there again Dark Sarcasm dont let your flying time pass you by. take every chance you can to fly. I was recently just getting over the flu and then a cold. A bit of vicks vapor rub under my nose and in 5 minutes the eustachian tube was clear and could fly just fine. Easy test is get your insctructor to do a circuit and see how you feel. I was fine.

 

good luck and keep it going

 

 

[Yenn]

Good blog darky. Keep it up. I had the same problem with the throttle when I started, years of driving farm tractors, where you pull the throttle for power led to a couple of hilarious moments, hard to land with full throttle!

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Thanks for the compliment on my blog, Yenn. I'm getting the hang of the throttle now, there were a few hairy moments at the start though! My main problem now is getting the throttle to slide smoothly, it tends to go in in 'jerks' rather than moving smoothly in and out.

 

PerthJay, I'm only 22 so I'm hoping my flying time won't be over for quite a long time! I decided to ground myself because of my cold largely because I didn't think it was fair on my instructor and the other people flying at the time - I'm a newbie so I need all (ALL) my concentration when I fly, and since this decreases when I'm sick, I decided flying was a bad choice...

 

Also, personally, I think that one of the important lessons that student pilots need to learn is to recognise when they aren't safe to fly. So, despite the fact I REALLY wanted to fly today, I realise that, even with Vicks and Codral etc, I'm still not at the level of concentration I need (considering my skill level). However, I am not judging anyone who flies with a cold, I'm just saying that for myself, at my current experience level, it isn't the best idea. :)

 

 

[perthjay85]

thats a good point Dark and a very commendable approach. only do what you feel comfortable to do. I spoke to my instructor about it and she said all to often students dont go flying for all sorts of reasons, some of which arent a problem. Me i felt fine so thats why i went ahead with it. im only 24 myself and hope i never stop flying.

 

 

[GraemeK]

DS - just had a proper read of your blog and sounds a lot like my experience. I certainly had trouble early on with the throttle, it just seemed counter-intuitive to push in for power - but now its second nature.

 

I can also relate to the "looking at instruments" thing - at about the same stage as you I found myself looking inside too much rather than getting attitude right, then confirming with instruments - so much so that my instructor covered over the ASI and asked me to fly certain speeds. Again, not a problem now.

 

Worst I did was get the flap switch wrong! After takeoff at 300' AGL, I went to raise the flaps but lowered instead - that combined with the usual increase in backpressure certainly got the instructor's attention!

 

Lots of fun though! If you're interested in the theory, I reckon Stick & Rudder is a fantastic book even though it was written in the 40's.

 

Also See How it Flies is a great on line resource.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Simonflyer]

Hi Dark..

 

I think its a good habit to always check the fuel before any flight.You are the pilot, and as such its good to start taking all the responsibility that you will soon have as Pilot in command.It would be really annoying(to say the least) to take off and then realise that you are out of fuel..

 

The rudder..well i wouldnt be moving it around too much, as its attached to the front wheel, and it wont like being moved much.It can put unneeded stress on it and other components to do so.Just make sure it is not about to drop off..

 

Overall with a walk around id say its good to get a system going so that you always know what your up to.I tend to do fuel and oil first, then start at the nose-prop first, and then get to it.Id also suggest taking it nice and slowly.Again it would be really unfortunate to have a problem because you missed something that could have been spotted in a walk around.I always check bolts and tyres areas that join and control surfaces/flaps extending and probably more..

 

The last suggestion would be to continually ask questions of your instructors..you are not meant to know what to check for, and if it was rushed or not shown to you properly then keep asking.You are spending plenty of money on your investment of learning to fly, and its up to you how much you get out of it..Id say 2/3rds of my fight training so far has been done on the ground..

 

Good luck and enjoy..

 

Cheers:thumb_up:

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

PerthJay - I'll probably get to my lesson next week and my instructor will tell me I could have flown, but oh well. I'm still not certain about all the medical requirements for flying (and when to fly/not fly) so I thought it was better to err on the side of caution. As I get more experience I'll get better at recognising when my health will really affect my flying :)

 

GraemeK - I had the exact same problem with the throttle, it seemed so much more logical to pull to go faster, but now I've got the hang of it...I worked it out as moving the throttle the way you want to go - move it forward to go forward, and back to stop! I haven't had a problem with the flaps switch (yet) largely because there's two large labels next to the switch marked 'UP' and 'DOWN' :big_grin: The instruments thing is a bit weird, some days I don't look enough and other days I look too much, I'm slowly working my way towards a happy medium... Thanks for the resources too. I've looked at Stick & Rudder before, but figured I should attempt to get my head around my normal theory books (BAK, Flight Training Manual etc) before buying extra books. It's definitely in my mind for the future though.

 

SimonFlying - I always check the fuel guages before flying, but don't dip the tanks. I'm going to ask my instructor to go through how to dip the tanks again next lesson though. I have developed some sort of a system for my walk around. I start at the left side at the nose, then work may way around the left wing, around the tail, then around the right wing back to the nose.

 

 

[Tracktop]

Hi all,I'm assuming it isn't a bad thing that I don't find things wrong to mention to the Instructor? Since it's a training aircraft, I like to think that if there was anything wrong someone else would have found it already, so it's not a bad thing that I don't find anything... To be honest, I'm not confident enough yet in how things are supposed to look, to really realise if something was wrong (unless it was something really obvious).

Hi

I don't know how your instructor works but some have been known ( and its a good technique ) to put faults there for you to find. It also gives them an idea how well you are preflighting. So always look hard and question if you even slightly suspect a problem. New and different eyes can often pick up what others have missed or assumed is OK.

 

( from a novice) Being a novice it is even easier to ask those simple or dumb question, why we are still learning so we are not expected to know any of the answers yet.

 

Yer I know we never stop learning or questioning.

 

Ray

 

 

[nong]

Hi all,I'm a new student, whose only been flying for a few months - this is my first post here actually. I've recently started doing the pre-flight checks myself and I have a few (probably stupid) questions:

 

1. When I go out to do the check, my instructor tells me that he'll follow me out in about 5-10 minutes. By the time he comes out, I've usually been through the check about 2-3 times. Is it meant to take 5-10 minutes and I'm being fast (and perhaps missing things) or is he just giving me lots of time to do it in?

 

2. Are you meant to dip the fuel tanks during each preflight, or just during the first of the day? I do the fuel drain to check for water etc, but I'm not sure whether I'm meant to dip the tanks as well. I'm flying a Jabiru J160, are the little bits sticking up on top of the wings the fuel tank lids? Also, I'm fairly short, does anyone have any tips for short pilots when dipping tanks?

 

3. When checking all the different control surfaces (like ailerons, elevator etc), I can move the ailerons and the elevator (to check movement) but not the rudder. I'm assuming that's because the rudder is harder to move in general, is that right or is it just because I'm weak?

 

Any help anyone can give me would be appreciated :) I keep thinking I should stick L-plates to the windscreen of the plane....

Hey Darky

This post is a shocker. Fair dinkum mate, get yourself a new instructor...and fast.

 

Communication with your instructor has broken down or you wouldn't be posting here! This is your instructors fault!!!

 

Your instructor is sitting on his XXXX when he should be with you to point out the pushrod linkage to the nose wheel and the ramifications thereof.

 

Has he pointed out the three drain points? Has he shown you how water settles to the bottom of the fuel sampler and discussed the weight of AVGAS vs water?

 

Has he shown you how to check for compressions?

 

What about the care needed with perspex/Lexan windscreen cleaning?

 

AND much much more. This bloke sounds like a bum. Do yourself a favour.

 

Cheers, Nong

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Wow, I feel like I've done my instructor a huge disservice here. I don't think he's actually being a bum....see, my thinking is that if he came out to do the preflight with me, then I'd spent the entire time asking him if I'm doing it right, me doing it alone makes me think for myself, and it's actually giving me confidence.

 

I have been shown the three drain points, and I check each one during each preflight. I've also been shown how water etc settles. So I'm not totally hopeless.

 

As I've said before, I have this perfectionist tendency which makes me think that I should remember everything the first time and get it right the first time. Thus, I don't ask enough questions. That isn't his fault, me not asking questions, it's mine. How is he going to know if I have problems if I don't ask? I realise this and I really am trying to get through this 'perfectionist' thing, it's just taking time.

 

So, Nong, thanks for your advice. :) I did have a different instructor for one lesson and I HATED it. His teaching style was completely wrong for me and I felt like i wasted my $150. I'm going to stick with my current instructor because his style does actually work for me. I just need to ask more questions, which I'm working on doing.

 

Ray - interesting idea about the intentional faults. Maybe as I start getting better at seeing how things should be, he'll start doing that, who knows. :)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Interesting point about the different instructor, also referred to in the MrH post, ups and downs of a new pilot.

 

I wasted a lot of money adjusting to the different procedures of different instructors - they were all good guys, but when you are trying to learn so much so fast, it just makes it so much harder to get a routine going.

 

 

[nong]

Humble apologies to your instructor, Darky.

 

Cheers Nong

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Thanks Nong - I just wanted to make sure that people didn't think I was blaming my instructor for what are essentially my mistakes. I'm going to get on with asking more questions :) To be honest, this is the first time I've learnt a totally new skill for a few years, so I'm finding it a bit weird to go back to being a complete novice...I keep expecting myself to know the answers even though no one else would expect me to!

 

Turboplanner - totally agree about the whole routine thing. You tend to get used to how one instructor does things, so when you fly with someone else it totally throws you off.

 

I've decided that next lesson I'll ask my instructor to demonstrate an entire preflight with me. When I first went through the preflight it was during the lesson with the different instructor, so I think when I was learning it I was also getting used to the other instructor as well... Either way, having a full demonstration again can't hurt, I can find out about any checks I'm forgetting and also check that I'm doing everything properly :)

 

 

[poteroo]

DS,

 

Can I suggest that you include your instructor in the pre-flight from now on....as in:

 

1) have him operate the controls from the cockpit while you check their deflection, and smooth operation, from outside. Any unusual noise may indicate binding in the system.

 

2) have him switch on the master and operate the flaps to full deflection and return,while you check for dual flap extension and no binding. Also, switch on any beacons or strobes for you to check.

 

3) have him hold weight on the aft fuselage sufficient to lift the nosewheel so you can deflect it fully L & R

 

4) run your fuel checks using the standard drain device, but pour each sample progressively into a clear bottle, (jam jar is good), so you have this to 'present' for inspection. Then locate a dirty puddle and scoop 10,20,30 ml of it into your jam jar....viola! - you'll see what shouldn't be there, and can drain the tanks again until it's clear.

 

5) having his weight in the aircraft also gives you a better appreciation of how much tyre pressure you have, or don't have, - given that conducting an actual pressure check involves unplugging grommet holes on J-160's.

 

In some respects I agree with Nongs' opinion regarding you being left to follow just the pre-flight checklist, out of the POH, I trust? There's a lot more to be learnt than what that encompasses.

 

happy days,