RAA in CTA.

[slartibartfast]

I didn't ask Lee whether any incidents happened at Narromine. The important point was that John McCormick wasn't there and his decision had nothing to do with any incidents there. I thought people would like that cleared up.

 

There were CTA incursions elsewhere which did have a bearing on the outcome and that is disappointing, but it isn't all-round bad flying by RAA pilots.

 

I also said that I personally saw very little to concern me at Narromine. That's not to say I didn't miss some.

 

 

[Ultralights]

my feelings are the CTA endo was suspended due to the fact that GAAPS will become Class D airspace early next year, and the new requirements fro CASA that there is to be no more than 6 aircraft per controller in GAAP zones.

 

this new stupid 6 aircraft rule is the real killer... 1 hr of circuits now at bankstown can take up to 3 hrs to complete, usually consisting of 1 hr start delay clearance, followed by 30 to 45 min delays in the runup bay, then only getting 30 mins flying before being told to make it a full stop due to arriving traffic.

 

CASA sure knows how to shoot an industry in the head.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

I would like to appologize here for an error in a post of mine near the start of this or a imilar thread on this site. I erred in my report of a public incident at Narromine between Mr Mc Cormick and someone who was reported to be a member of RAAus and / or RAAus Management.

 

Here are the facts as I know them. I have been informed by a friend (who has not consented to be named here) that he is reliably informed (I know, this is now 3rd or 4th hand) that there was a public incident between Mr Mc Cormick and someone who was reported to be a member of RAAus and / or RAAus Management at Bunderberg, not Narromine as previously reported by me.

 

I have been informed by another independant source (who also has not consented to be named here) that Mr Mcormick (I am paraphrasing here) has serious concerns with the professionalism, competancy and standards of conduct of a number of RAAus pilots.

 

In both these cases it was relayed to me that these were significant contributory factors in Mr McCormick's decision on RAAus and CTA.

 

I have not contacted Mr Mc Cormick directly to verify this as I don't want to undermine, circumvent or jeopardize RAAus management.

 

I wanted to bring this to the attention of RAAus members in an attempt to encourage better airmanship.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Thanks Qwerty.

 

The sad thing is that it is only a handful of idiots. Just like there is a handful of idiots with PPLs that lack the same "professionalism, competancy and standards of conduct." (I know I encounter them frequently enough and I have not been flying very long!)

 

Unfortunately, we are represented as a group and therefore action can be taken against the group as a whole.

 

Imagine CASA realising there is too much screwing around by cowboy PPLs and changing the rule so no PPL can use CTA at all anymore!

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

I am informed that my admission on this site of (probably dozens of) illegal flights into CTA is being hammered on another web chat site. I would like to clear any misconceptions about these incedents.

 

I hold a PPL and have a significant number of hrs as PIC. My examining instructor neglected to include CTA and CTR on my licence approval when he signed off. He was clear in his personal congratulation to me on passing my flight test for my PPL that I could now fly, and I quote, "Anywhere in the world". My instructor was well aware that one of my motivations for gaining my PPL was specifically to allow access to CTA. I had no reason to go checking my licence or the the regs.

 

When I realised that there may be a problem after reading a couple of posts on this site, I immediately called this same CFI (now retired) for clarification. I then rang CASA and discussed my situation and the transgressions with their licencing section. I then rang my local Aero Club CFI and I have an appointment for tomorrow to get the apprpriate endorsements.

 

I then posted an account of these events here so that if anyone else was in the same situation, they would have an opportunity to fix it.

 

I understand that I acted illegally. I have however moved quickly and openly to rectify the situation.

 

In my defence, I was under the impression following direct comminication from my CFI that I was fully licenced to access Class C, D and GAAP CTA. I have been properly trained (but not signed off) to exercise those priviledges.

 

AND FINALLY, to those who have, or wish to point to these circumstances to to run RAAus down, this has nothing whatsoever to do with RAAus, RAAus had nothing to do with any of this. I am a GA pilot who stuffed up and I am now in the process of fixing it.

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Onya Qwerty. Great stuff - exactly the open and honest attitude which, if adopted by everyone, would end all the cloak and dagger, poilitics and power games that seem to be going on.

 

Not to mention a whole lot safer because knowledge would be shared more openly.

 

 

[j3pipercub]

I do see where you are coming from RE: idiots on both sides of the fence. However, in saying that, the PPL's are already on the GA/CTA side of the fence.

 

Deliberate rule breaches (according to Mr. Ungerman) by RAA pilots (even though a small minority) really did spoil it for you all. I feel for you in some ways.

 

Ultralights, I agree that the GAAP amendments are ridiculous, but can't be the primary reason for the denial of the CTA endorsement.

 

Happy flying guys

 

j3

 

P.S. This post was not intended to provoke prod or annoy anyone on this site, apologies if it did, was not my intention

 

 

[hihosland]

I doubt that Qwerty is the only one to have fallen into this trap.

 

It is now some years since my last PPL BFR which included GAAP, CTR, and radar.

 

My licence as issued has a listing of licence classes, ratings and endorsements held but no reference to controlled airspace at all.

 

The licence included the statement

 

"Granted in accordance with the CAOs and subject to any conditions and limitations expressed therin and to conditions at item XIII. "

 

There being no limitations listed I presume that

 

CTR/CTA is included.

 

My understanding is that originally a PPL included CTR unless endorsed OCTA only.

 

Apparently the system has since changed.

 

I'd be interested to know the correct story.

 

Davidh

 

 

[David F]

I was checking my tie downs as a storm front was rapidly approaching. The wind was gusting all over the place along with rain squalls.

 

There were several aircraft flying at the time a Jab ,Savannah and a couple of gyros I noticed the enclosed gyro flying in and out of the cloud on the front .This was not a case of someone arriving in unforseen bad weather they were doing TIFs and several takeoffs and landings were completed.Was the pilot a CFI ? I am not sure but whoever it was he should have known better.

 

The display was reckless,illegal and stupid I was relieved that we did not end the day pulling bodies out of wrecked AC.

 

David

 

 

[skybum]

hihos...my licence says the same thing...methinks the OCTA thing is like the old RPPL full licence is a lifting off the area restriction.

 

 

[skybum]

David F. I bet you were thinking "Why isn't someone yanking these guys down NOW?"

 

If these :censored:s knew they could lose their privelages, they would act very differently.

 

 

[David F]

Hi Skybum

 

They probably thought that we were admiring their acts of bravado as the persons concerned give the impression that they are Gods gift to the human race.

 

I dont know what if any action has been taken but would have expected a please explain from the ops manager and if found guilty of reckless flying the suspension of flying privileges including instructional ratings for a period of time.

 

Dave

 

 

[K-man]

Here are the facts as I know them. I have been informed by a friend (who has not consented to be named here) that he is reliably informed (I know, this is now 3rd or 4th hand) that there was a public incident between Mr Mc Cormick and someone who was reported to be a member of RAAus and / or RAAus Management at Bunderberg, not Narromine as previously reported by me. I have been informed by another independant source (who also has not consented to be named here) that Mr Mcormick (I am paraphrasing here) has serious concerns with the professionalism, competancy and standards of conduct of a number of RAAus pilots.

 

In both these cases it was relayed to me that these were significant contributory factors in Mr McCormick's decision on RAAus and CTA.

I was at the Bundaberg Air Show and there were very few RAA aircraft involved. However, there was one significant breach of RA regulations which may well have raised the ire of CASA. However, I cannot believe that the actions of one pilot, or for that matter a small number if you include the incursions at Temora after Narromine, would cause CASA to tear up months of work. The last para of McCormick's letter is very interesting in light of the fact that no reasons are given. "I consider,however, that the above proposed changes to current rules are not in the best interests of the safety of air navigation." This seems to be McCormick's personal position, adopted without consultation, and I really feel we deserve a better explanation bearing in mind the huge amount of work and effort RAA has put in on our behalf.

 

 

[turboplanner]

A lot of smoke, not many mirrors

 

 

[Yenn]

Concerning PPL's I had a good look at mine and no mention of CTA or GAAP endorsements. I see in the list of abbreviations that there is an "OCTA" abbreviation so I assume that unless your licence states OCTA that you are able to go into controlled airspace.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Yenn, According to the information that was given to me when I rang the CSA licencing people, that was the case until some time in the ninteys I think. Now, You need a CTA and a CTR endorsement to use CTA. I expect that getting the endorsements onto old licences would largely be a matter of process.

 

Anyhow, Call CASA, give em you ARN and sort it out with them. They were great when I called.

 

Cheers, Qwerty

 

 

[K-man]

Controlled airspace, plb's, pseudo GA aircraft etc may be all very well but I think people are forgetting that a lot of pilots are just happy to fly within the limits of their aircraft and their abilities. The reason we have a seperate organisation is to control the lower performance end of the market and look after the pilots that just want to fly for the pleasure of it. If pilots want to cross oceans or deserts, compete with 747's or do what larger and faster aircraft do, then go and get their ppl and leave us "normal people alone". I fly rag and tube, get a real kick out of a lazy flight on a fine afternoon and do not wish to compete with larger GA aircraft in either performance, passenger capacity or speed. (if I did I would get my PPL and buy an aircraft to suit). I carry a radio as I think they are essential, I do not carry a PLB. Do not try and make me a pseudo GA pilot as I don't want it.Cheers

Maynard

There seems to be this constant theme of leave RA alone, we like it like it is. In Eugene Reid's presidents report in the latest RA magazine he refers back to the situation in 1977 when we couldn't fly above 300' or fly over or across highways. I am sure that those conditions still suit some people but most have moved on. In 1986 we could fly to the dizzying height of 500' and cross the highway. Should we have drawn the line there? If not is there some other point that we should have stopped our progress? Since then recreational flying has evolved much more and it will continue to evolve for the next hundred or more years. We can't stop development. People with red flags would still be walking in front of cars if the clock stopped at that point of time in the automotive story.

 

The Locomotive Act (also known as the Red Flag Act) is a reference to the Locomotives Act 1865 introduced by the British parliament as one of a series of measures to control the use of mechanically propelled vehicles on British public highways during the latter part of the 19th century. This act required any motorised vehicle to be preceded by a man with a red flag.

If your passion is to fly at 300' around your property and no further, fine .. go for it. That is your right and privilege. If your desire is to own and fly a faster and perhaps more sophisticated RA aircraft, optioned to a standard that is safe to utilise controlled airspace, then I believe that that privilege should be sought for you by RAA. As has been pointed out by many, just because a privilege is granted doesn't mean that everyone has to apply for that privilege. We can all fit under the umbrella of RAA. It is so totally negative and counter-productive to fight amongst ourselves.

[Guest Ken deVos]

Ahhh, the good old days!

 

The man with the red flag is now the traffic light, speed and red light camera.

 

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

I was just wondering with all the speculating on this thread as to why CASA hasn't approved the RAA into CTA thing that it might have more to do with "Airservices". When you read the ridiculious six aircraft per controller at GAAP/Class D at any one time, Airservices staffers don't want the extra burden of supposedly "poorer trained" pilots in their airspace....just a thought?:pig:

 

 

[slartibartfast]

They are aware that RAA pilots in CTA won't be poorly trained.

 

The syllabus that was put forward is much more comprehensive than even a CPL would do according to Lee. He has a CPL and he put the syllabus together so he would know.

 

 

[HEON]

Now on page five and there is still scope for more.

 

Now if CASA had said what the problem was we could make the effort to correct the problem.:confused:

 

How about someone who can talk to RAA Mngt in the right way try to obtain what the real problem is.

 

Most RAA pilots are able to understand the problem, and POSSIBLY interested in correcting it. What REARLY (word deleated) me off is being told there is a problem, and not being told by that authorty what it is to correct it:hittinghead:

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I met John McCormick a few years back when he visited Ingham NQ. in his very nice single-seat tail-dragger Yak. We put the plane in the hangar for a couple of nights, which as a pilot he naturally appreciated. From memory he is pretty much one of us, and he's also an ex 77sqn Mirage pilot, so obviosly he's no dummy either. This was of course before he became head of CASA. One of CASA's main stated duties is the protection of the flying public, and I really don't think he would have had much choice, but to make the decision he has. I mean put yourself in his position for a moment. Can't you see the headlines now ? UNLICENSED ULTRALIGHT PILOT FLYS INTO 737, 189 dead !!... We would cease to exist as a sporting entity the following day no doubt.

 

I know there are some of our members around capital cities who are inconvienced by being made to circumvent CTAs. Even here in Townsville we have to avoid the Class C by flying over non-landable tiger country for about ten minutes. I did it this afternoon, and generally do it at least twice a week. Funny thing is, not a month ago I was offered a clearance through our Class C, which I readily accepted, without requesting it. I do have a transponder, and a great radio, and I think they have come to know me over the years. I don't have a current Australian PPL, but do have an FAA US PPL. They don't know that.

 

Like others amoungst us, I was looking foward to getting a CTA endorsment, as I do believe it would have increased the abilities of those using one. However I understand the decision, and I am prepared to keep doing my ten minutes over no-mans land for the long-term health and survival of our flying privilages. I do believe Mr McCormick is probabily the best head of CASA we've had for some time, and I think we as an entity, can work with him to our advantage, in the future........

 

 

[hihosland]

Things are not all that bad.

 

Under the RaAus proposal an RaAus pilot would be able to fly into CTA after passing a medical and an appropriate flight test in an approved aircraft fitted with radio and transponder.

 

Or one can achieve the same result by getting a PPL which requires a medical an appropriate flight test in an approved aircraft fitted with radio and transponder.

 

The only real extra is passing the GA theory exams which for any RaAus pilot contemplating CTA entry should be no challenge.

 

As far as I can discern there is no actual requirement for the aircraft to be VH registered for one to gain a PPL in one's own aircraft. After all it is the pilot getting the PPL not the aircraft. If an RaAus rego'd aircraft meets the requirements for CTA entry with a PPL at the controls it should meet the requirements for a PPL flight test.

 

I can find no regulation that says otherwise. The regs for the PPL AFR clearly state that it is preferred that the pilot take the review in the aircraft type that was used for the majority of the last 10 flights.

 

I believe that the testing officer does need qualification in both RaAus and GA and be working for an organisation with the appropriate AOC.

 

So for those who want a CTA privledeges let's just get out there and do the PPL and get on with flying.

 

Davidh

 

 

[GraemeK]

The only real extra is passing the GA theory exams which for any RaAus pilot contemplating CTA entry should be no challenge.

Yep - if all those superheros out in GA land can pass the exam, it's gotta be a breeze for us :stirring pot:

 

Seriously - I think it's the way to go, why impose extra stuff on those who don't need or want it when there's a simple solution?

 

Plus I've just been dying to step back in time and have a go at flying the antique Warriors with their quaint steam gauges!

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

As far as I can discern there is no actual requirement for the aircraft to be VH registered for one to gain a PPL in one's own aircraft.

The only problem I see with that is the required 2 hours of instrument flying. That would at the very least require a full six pack, wouldn't it? Not that many RA-Aus planes have that.