HGFA Special General Meeting

[skeptic36]

Hi all,

 

I thought maybe we could get some discussion going re the upcoming vote to oust the current HGFA board.

 

I have not been a member for long so don't know much about the history or politics of the HGFA.

 

According to information given to me today from within the HGFA members who are trike pilots have been paying higher fees than members who fly unpowered aircraft and mostly we are ignored in favour of the 'unpowereds' when it comes time to receive benefits from those fees. Apparently the current board has rearranged the setup changing the old state associations system, because they where deemed illegal, and setting up the new SARSIG system which is supposed to be both legal and a fairer way of distributing funding.

 

All this has apparently upset pilots who fly unpowered aircraft (I suppose they would be called soaring pilots) who have benefited from the old system and if they are successful in the upcoming election will return things to the way they where.

 

Do I have this right or am I barking up the wrong tree?

 

Regards Bill.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Hi Bill,

 

You must have received the same email as an HGFA member as I did today and I think you've made a fair summary of it.

 

I don't have much sympathy for those who moan loudly when it looks like their free ride at others expense likes like ending, if that is actually the case. It's hard to say as I don't recall ever seeing the HGFA publish any breakdown of expenditure to it's members. To be fair I don't recall seeing RAAus do it either.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[Tracktop]

Hi Bill

 

I read the same thing.

 

With my also limited time and knowledge with HGFA it seems to me that the current board is trying to set things up in a manner that CASA etc needs / requires for us to continue into the future. I must say I couldn't understand what all the fuss has been about until I got the info of the distribution of funds. So it seems it's not really a political issue more a $ issue, and if as suggested an illegal $ distribution at that. As a member of the association I am glad my current board if proactively trying to correct these issues and anomalies and trying to improve the professionalism of my association.:thumb_up:

 

 

[winsor68]

What is the advantage for you guys to be with HGFA rather than Ra-Aus...or is it common to join both?

 

If I may ask?

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

What is the advantage for you guys to be with HGFA rather than Ra-Aus...or is it common to join both? If I may ask?

Guys with a hang gliding or paragliding background might have more affinity with the HGFA but I think most new students simply join the organisation to which their schools belong. I'm with RAAus only because I also fly 3-axis & it saves the hassle & cost of two memberships.

 

I've not seen all the info on the HGFA situation but there has long been the perception in some quarters that trikers were paying more than their fair share & that the organisation was more interested in the free flying disciplines. Of course weighshift aircraft are minority within RAAus also

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

There has been some problems in the HGFA for a few years now. small group have had a good grip on the reins for some time. along with the unfair fees structure there has been problems about monopolies on instructing and training locations. i was not to impressed when i heard about the competition scoring where a privateer was subject to a countback to favour the factory pilots. there has also been a lot of talk about a breakaway federation forming for some years now.

 

one good thing about trikes in the HGFA is there nanolight catagory. something that the RAAus will not support and that i want. ALL the self reg groups have their problems with power freaks. I avoid HGFA sites, i already fork out way to much to several groups.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Good point about the nanolights Ozzie & I think we both agree it would be better if the category used the British SSDR formulae. I wasn't aware that RAAus had a position on this though ?

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Tracktop]

Hi all

 

You probably already recieved this info but just in case

 

 

Exert from HGFA enews

 

 

"The long awaited vote for the SGM motions are in the mail.

 

The SGM motion has been sent to all current financial HGFA members only.

 

Important notice - There was an error that states that the ballot closes on August the 28th. The actual closing date of the ballot is Thursday 17th September - Please pass this important information on.

 

"

 

 

[Guest AirBorne Flights]

Hi BillI read the same thing.

With my also limited time and knowledge with HGFA it seems to me that the current board is trying to set things up in a manner that CASA etc needs / requires for us to continue into the future. I must say I couldn't understand what all the fuss has been about until I got the info of the distribution of funds. So it seems it's not really a political issue more a $ issue, and if as suggested an illegal $ distribution at that. As a member of the association I am glad my current board if proactively trying to correct these issues and anomalies and trying to improve the professionalism of my association.:thumb_up:

Well said i really think that somes it up.

Cheers Criso

 

 

 

[bushpilot]

I was a member of the HGFA for many years (since 1977), then 4 years ago I heard about RA-Aus and switched the rego of my trike. Never looked back; RA-Aus is cheaper and better..

 

 

[bushpilot]

The lunacy of what is going on:

 

Subject: Reasons to vote Yes on the HGFA Special General Meeting ballot paper

 

 

Dear XXXX,

 

 

 

Your SGM ballot paper is coming. Voting "Yes" to each motion removes a board member who inappropriately:

 

 

1. Increased the HGFA annual fee (up to 56%) despite holding $500,000+ in reserves.

 

2. Retained what was your State/regional fees component.

 

3. Acted contrary to the HGFA Rules (Constitution) and members rights and interests.

 

 

The "Yes" vote candidates propose to remedy these matters.

 

 

 

The following material was submitted to, but censored from our magazine:-

 

 

 

The Board decided to bring in huge unnecessary fee increases (up to 56%). Contrary to their claims, the fee increase was not necessary: The HGFA has always had ample reserves ($500,000+) to meet all contingencies. You were told by the General Manager that a possible insurance premium call could be devastating (Soaring Mag., Sept. 08, Page 42, Para. 2), Pres. Javier Alverez used the word "bankruptcy" (Soaring Mag. Oct. 08, page 39), neither claim was true. Our reserves are double such an unlikely call. See the HGFA's last audited financial statements (HGFA 07/08 accounts, Page 6). Also, the HGFA has traded profitably (averaging $40,000 surplus every year) for at least four years (2005, 2006, 2007, 2008). Treasurer Mark Mitsos recently emailed some members claiming we had made losses, again not true.

 

 

 

Further they decided to take your State/Regional fees component and keep those also, effectively curtailing your State/regions ability to fund local operations, maintain sites and fund other Club and State/regional initiatives including Site Procurement.

 

 

 

The taking of State/Regional fees is highly detrimental to our sports of Paragliding and Hang-gliding which are not airport based. The loss of reliable State operational funding will lead to poor site maintenance, loss of sites and increases in Club fees.

 

 

The high fees are losing us members and membership numbers are being withheld. A figure of 2,220 was stated by Bob Hayes (August Soaring) while one new Board member recently mentioned low 2100's. This is down from 2,607 in Sept. 2007.

 

 

 

The excesses of the Board are exemplified by the sacking of Board Member Brian Webb by the 5 board members named for removal in this Special General Meeting. The 5 asked Brian to resign, he declined. They then sacked him, disregarding rules 6.23 and 6.24 ("Removal of member") of our Constitution which requires a General Meeting to remove a Board Member. The members elected Brian and only you in General Meeting can remove him; as we are asking you to remove that 5 now.

 

 

 

The GM and President in in July Soaring (pages 40 - 41) suggested Brian had left the Board to pursue other interests, not true. Brian was his own man and had his own voice so they sacked him. He is still constitutionally a member of the board, and has even renominated for the upcoming Board election. There are only 3 elected Members left on the present Board.

 

 

 

The President implies in his column in July Soaring that nominations were called for the Board casual vacancies, not true, the 5 offered their friends the positions in an attempt to maintain control and negate this Special General Meeting. That's another reason they sacked Brian.

 

 

 

The latest resignation of Don Cramer is the loss of a Board Member we believed had much to contribute. He at times voiced an independent view on Board policies. Both Don Cramer and Brian Webb were openly critical of the GM and Board for the unchecked arbitrary and inappropriate use of the GM's disciplinary powers. Don and Brian offered their support and apologies to the recipient of their attention, Mr. Maderson Ford. I believe this led to Dons resignation. Brian and Don have wished us luck with the SGM.

 

 

The SGM's 5 named Board Members have jeopardised our flying community by: Ignoring input from the membership, ignoring input from State/regional associations, ignoring the Rules (constitution), denying members rights under the Rules, denying a members right to access records (membership, statistical, financial, insurance, and legal), ignoring and not reporting the views of individual Board members, inappropriately threatening legal action, misrepresenting our financial situation in support of the fee increase, claiming to possess nonexistent legal advice (at the last AGM), improper selective Minutes keeping, poor fiscal management, illegal removal of a Board Member and supporting inappropriate use by the GM of his disciplinary powers and delays in proceedings and maintaining a non transparent disciplinary process. Further they have frustrated the ability of concerned individuals and groups to inform the membership by restricting access to the magazine, denying members their right to propose AGM motions, and withholding members postal and email addresses, in order to block democratic action, and even to frustrate a legal SGM conducted earlier in the year (see my article Soaring magazine July 09 Edition).

 

 

 

The neutering of the State/regional bodies will reduce volunteerism and increase less effectual centralized paid bureaucracy. If people do not have influence they will not have interest; you must engage them. This GM and Board in assuming all funds and power are destroying HGFA institutions. This recently included the Safety and Operations Committee (Holtkamp, Wenness, and other respected volunteers) which the GM first ignored and recently disbanded. They were disbanded after offering constructive criticism of a proposed GM/Board policy. Their comments addressed safe training operations.

 

 

 

John Twomey

 

 

 

 

 

 

[eastmeg2]

 

If that's all true HGFA has been treating its members like mushrooms - keeping us in the dark and feeding us organic fertiliser . . . thumb_down

 

 

[Tracktop]

I guess there are at least 2 sides to every story.

 

HGFA members have been emailed the other side ( current board), which essentially deals with / answers most / all of the issues from the yes group.

 

Looking at both sides stories and endorsments from others it would seem fairly obvious the yes case is primarily about loosing state funding and only beneficial IF you or your group were lucky enough to be receiving more than your fair share ( now removed) of the pot. My understanding is most if not all trikers received none of these funds unless they also were involved in the right HG club / events.

 

 

[skeptic36]

The thing that strikes me is how unprofessional both sides are. Opinion and hearsay seem to be the order of the day and if you have sent out a ballot paper with the wrong date on it surely the only legal way to fix that is to cancel those and reissue new papers with the correct date. At least you would think a correction would have to go to the same list of addresses, surely an e-mail doesn't cut it. I reckon if the losing side gets the brace and bits and has the capital to challenge the result we will be having another election.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Air Creation]

Hey ya all..

 

Not sure if I have it correct.. but it appears after some 15 years or more since my departure from the HGFA to the AUF (now RAAus) the argument about costs and management are still on the table.

 

Totally understand the Nano concept with being under the HGFA, but really folks, the RAAus have the appropriate system to administer the heavier faster microlights of today.

 

After many years with the HGFA (National Coach, Instructor of the Year BLAH! Blah) I had paid many dollars over years to find that my flying school- a 'Pty.Ltd.Company' was not eligible for the insurance that the HGFA were charging in my fees!

 

IMO.. the trikers of the HGFA have greatly supported the Federation for at least two decades...especially with declining hang gliding & paragliding activities in this period.

 

You may differ in thought.... Better to have one administation body that allows us to fly safely without heavy restriction and at an affordable price.

 

IMO - A larger flying membership makes sense. Stronger support to improve standards of safety, airspace operations and the freedoms we share in flying.

 

At the end of the day, choice is good - if the choice matters to you for a reason.

 

Have you ever wondered why the 'T2' and '32" in rego numbering for trikes ..?

 

I do know the true reason why we have both HGFA & RAAus governing CAO 95.32 aircraft in Australia??? But thats another thread!

 

Good luck with the voting.

 

Smooth Landings.

 

Chris :yin_yan:

 

 

[Tracktop]

I guess if you fly trikes and 3 axis then RAA is the obvious choice.

 

If you fly trikes and hang glide then HGFA is the obvious choice.

 

If you only fly trikes (me) then it probably doesn't matter too much - except

 

for what your school your with - closest / best / started withetc.

 

Trouble with being in the "cross" category I suppose.

 

Like owning a Suburu of old - wasn't really a 4WD wasn't really a normal car - now main stream. :confused:

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Getting bloody annoying to have to fork out for RAAus,HGFA, and APF plus club fees shame i can't get the Lazair into the nano class it makes the weight 73kg but is not weightshift.. sure would save me a couple of hundred bucks a year. glad i dont have to add the cost of an asic hanger et. to my yearly slug.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

I've just found the following on the HGFA website.

 

HGFA - Hang Gliding Federation of Australia

 

Looks like the "Yes" vote got through on all 5 motions.

 

It'll be mighty interesting to see what happens now. . .

 

 

 

[alf jessup]

Glen,

 

Yep be interesting to see what happens now, guess the tea bags and kites will benifit once again from our higher fees we pay and now will we continue on how it has been since I have been a member(nothing).???

 

If the new board considers us that pay higher fees all good and well, if they continue on like it has been in the past well we have lost nothing as nothing is all we as WSM pilots with the hgfa have gotten in the past.

 

They may find more members moving over to the RAA in the future which they might like to see anyway, up until the expenditure exceeds the income coming in then the party will be over.

 

I genuinly wish the new board well and I cant wait to see what they intend to do differently from the previous board, I guess time will tell and time we have plenty of not so the funds distributed at this stage.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[Tracktop]

Glen,Yep be interesting to see what happens now, guess the tea bags and kites will benifit once again from our higher fees we pay and now will we continue on how it has been since I have been a member(nothing).???

 

If the new board considers us that pay higher fees all good and well, if they continue on like it has been in the past well we have lost nothing as nothing is all we as WSM pilots with the hgfa have gotten in the past.

 

They may find more members moving over to the RAA in the future which they might like to see anyway, up until the expenditure exceeds the income coming in then the party will be over.

 

I genuinly wish the new board well and I cant wait to see what they intend to do differently from the previous board, I guess time will tell and time we have plenty of not so the funds distributed at this stage.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

With CASA's current agenda and focus do we really have time? It will be interesting to see how things progress now. Maybe all trikes under one body has moved a lot closer in the last week.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Glen,Yep be interesting to see what happens now, guess the tea bags and kites will benifit once again from our higher fees we pay and now will we continue on how it has been since I have been a member(nothing).???

 

If the new board considers us that pay higher fees all good and well, if they continue on like it has been in the past well we have lost nothing as nothing is all we as WSM pilots with the hgfa have gotten in the past.

 

They may find more members moving over to the RAA in the future which they might like to see anyway, up until the expenditure exceeds the income coming in then the party will be over.

 

I genuinly wish the new board well and I cant wait to see what they intend to do differently from the previous board, I guess time will tell and time we have plenty of not so the funds distributed at this stage.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

Alf:

I've not been a member of the HGFA for very long so I can't really comment on what's gone on in the past. However, from what I'm told and what I've read, I have the same concerns as you about copping higher fees and fewer benefits. I'm doing my pilots license and will finish that with the HGFA, but unless the new board show me that they are going to lift the standards of of the association and cater equally for all pilots (not just the non-powered fliers), I'm leaning towards moving to the RAA once I'm qualified.

 

Unfortunately, it appears that the current stoush has driven a wedge in the HGFA that will be hard to heal. If the new board are insensitive to those divisions and plough ahead with their agenda regardless, it could cause irrepairable damage to the association.

 

From my observations of coups and takeovers one outcome could be something like this: The new board charge in and, convinced that they are right, start to implement their agenda and try to sweep away the dissent and divisions caused by the battle. The dissenters drift away from an organisation that no longer represents their needs and the new rulers think this is a good thing as it lessens opposition to their agenda. They stay in denial, even past the point where the organisation is no longer functional and starts to fail. When it inevitably does fail, the wreckers walk away claiming conspiracies, witch hunts and traitors were to blame.

 

A nightmare scenario, I know. But I have seen it happen before. I wish the new folks well and hope that they will tread carefully and act in the best interests of all the members.

 

Should anyone think that I'm taking sides here, I'm definitely not. I know nothing about either side in this, so I couldn't sensibly cast a vote. However, I have seen some things that the HGFA need to improve and I hope that the new group will lift the organisation. I just worry that putsches/coups, (call 'em what you like) have the potential for great harm as well as great good.

 

Time will tell.

 

 

[skeptic36]

Alf:I've not been a member of the HGFA for very long so I can't really comment on what's gone on in the past. However, from what I'm told and what I've read, I have the same concerns as you about copping higher fees and fewer benefits. I'm doing my pilots license and will finish that with the HGFA, but unless the new board show me that they are going to lift the standards of of the association and cater equally for all pilots (not just the non-powered fliers), I'm leaning towards moving to the RAA once I'm qualified.

HI Scott

 

Exactly what I'm thinking.

 

What happens though with the rego number, some of you blokes have got shiny new wings with a HGFA rego number on it. How do you change that .

 

Could be a good angle for me if I tell the missus I need a new 4 stroker so I have somewhere to write the new number :no no:

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[alf jessup]

Bill,

 

It's just a matter of peeling the old stickers off and putting the new ones on, pain in the butt getting the old ones off.

 

Also a few more things that have to be done if going from Hgfa to Raa like trike inspection/airworthiness ect.

 

I will see what the new board has in mind before I make a decision.

 

If they intend to treat us as it has been in the past and reap our fees for their pleasure activities I will happily move camps as atleast the previous board was intending to make change for the better of us WSM pilots.

 

Time will tell i guess.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[alf jessup]

Scott,

 

Your not taking sides and it doesnt matter if you do as you are a member and have the right to voice your opinion in more ways than one seen as though your fees are much higher you have the right to a louder gripe if that is to become the case later on.

 

It's your hard earned and you can do and spend it where you want lol.

 

 

[Tracktop]

While I am also happy to stay with HGFA and see what happens,

 

maybe Ian in his new capacity

 

could get the RAA to look at making the transition easier and simpler, in case there is a need for a mass exodus. Probably should include easy transitions for instructors etc as well.