a bit of a diatribe and peoples thoughts would be apprecited

[Guest redleader]

Been a bit of a lurker on here for a while and I have been thinking a lot of the issues that general aviation and recrational aviation is facing. Some seem so disheartening and some seem so dam restrictive that goes against basic freedoms and hinder the common passion we have for the love of flying that we share.

 

We seem to have the issues where in a nation that is large as ours with a population base as small as it does that we seem to be on a never ending battle of land with the removal of airfields. These wonderful pieces of infrastructure are seemingly deemed by the populations as undesirables. Why is that? What is this industry have that seeming disinterests the population so much that can see the removal of so many airfields which has so many benefiets for the communties that often they support.

 

I stood around camden today. Listened to the talk and saw and heard the fact that airfield has increased traffic that it is becoming a situation that borders on madness chaos and mayhem. I read in my communication from CASA being ppl certified that camden is going to go to class d airspace. I do support this move on the basis of safety and risk however the limits of 6 aircraft in the circuit at any one time whilst being safety conscious surely is going to have serious financial implications to operators and users as the cost of the tower charges will increase as we all know user pays. This has me utterly annoyed. I am paying for more congestion, decreased service. I know i may indeed preaching to the converted on this issue but i just need to get it out of my system. TO people that understand. So we know all the problems so what are the solutions??? heck that question just knaws and knaws away at me.

 

The more I think about it. The more I think the solution is we need another runway within the sydney basin to replace the runway that was lost by hoxton park and to a lessor extent schofields that we lost years before. Is it a realistic possibilty? I don't Know and I would appreciate on others thoughts on this as I know their are a lot of people on here that have great insight and understanding of the issues more than I. However if it is just the lack of political will. I can't remember who said it but give me a a big enough lever and I can move the world comes to mind. A properly researched, formulated plan, that is costed in a cost benefiet anaylsis and understanding of the obstacles will always prevail.

 

I guess I am at the research state as I have a few plans in my head and a vision for trying to see something done on this. So a few questions if people who often hold an awesome amount of knowledge I wish to pick your collective brains. This information is not being obtained for any commercial venture. It is about asking questions and trying to understand.

 

1. Does BAL or Macquarie bank have government clauses that preclude the building of an airfield within the sydney basin? Whom would you make the freedom of information request to acquire this information?

 

2. Does anybody know about the procurement process of excess govt land specifically defense departmant land, especialy too public usage?

 

3. In an airfield in the sydney basin was to be build what would you like the facilities to be ? ( please be realistic here) we are not talking 60meter wide runway 3km long, with hasi and in this bit what sort of demand do you see for the usage of these facilities?

 

4. Do anybody have any contacts within the australian army engineers that I could ask some questions of?

 

Maybe this is the wrong place to say all this stuff and if it is please delete this thread moderator.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Roger that, Red Leader!

 

well put. i think the major problem with aviators standing up to the govt and developers about the airport situation is just apathy and the inability to stop wasting energy and time putting each others fraction down and pull together to make a reasonable political force (like the EAA).i recently put forward the question of GST being removed on items of safety equipment Like ELBs being removed and the two responces were pretty pathetic and mainly unrelated to my post. but very typical of the average pilot.same with the ASIC situation ect. No doubt pollies use this attitude to their advantage.

 

I never knew about the Mac bank restrictions for building another airport. The Badgery's/ wilton airports will never go ahead whilst it is a election tool. The military should have been relocted out of the sydney area long ago. Holsworthy would make a perfect place to use for private aviation. As you can see it won't be long before Camden starts to suffer from all the development going on around it. it will suffer the same fate as Hoxton within 20 years. As for question, 3 private aviation does not need much as far as runways go, 1200 mts of TODA sealed and a parrallel shorter grass much the same for the cross strip. maybe just a clone of Camden. but no where really to put it. they plan to keep building houses where ever they can be put.

 

looking forward to your future posts.

 

Ozzie

 

 

[David F]

Sydney Airfield

 

What about Badgerys Creek?

 

We could all club together and buy a block of dirt set it up and then be secure as we own IT (Ilive near Newcastle ) but if it was $100 a share I would be in)My local airfield Cooranbong was shut down three years ago not been developed yet but standing idle being wasted (i think all property developers should be gassed at birth) Food for thought as we all seem to be able to buy,maintain and operate aircraft.It makes sence to also own the airfield.

 

Dave

 

Anybody interested within 50 k radius of Morissett

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

David why waste your money in the sydney basin area.$100 dollar share may get you a spoonfull of dirt. head for the Hunter. Singleton maybe? have a good think about what the questions where. with a Savannah why do yiou want to operate from an airport anyway. bit like 4X4 in mosman

 

 

[turboplanner]

The big picture is that once the federal Government decided to offload its airports to private industry, the inevitable search for profit made our airports targets for sub letting the land to DFO's etc. and selling the land for development.

 

Not one of our airports is even close to the traffic volume/residential population mix of Van Nuys, so we should not be under any pressure at our City airports.

 

The fact that we are, and the fact that we are losing country airports for industrial development etc (albeit with rosy names like "freight hubs") is an indicator of the mistakes that were made a few years ago.

 

A byproduct of this, well known to planners is the use of emotional arguments for ulterior gain.

 

e.g. "We need to limit aircraft in the circuit."

 

When you pull the exact statistics, you find traffic is down from previous years, you ask yourself why, and then you look at that big "spare" runway which could produce a lot of profit rented out to factories.

 

As the costs of flying are squeezed up, less people can afford to fly, so the airfield becomes more marginal to oerate, and factory rentals look a much better proposition to the owner.

 

The lever you talk about is your local member of Parliament.

 

How many people here have actually spoken to one, and spelled out the problems we face, and shown him/her the consequences of that foolish decision taken some time in the past?

 

Don't just read this and sigh. Go on the Web, Search for Parliament, find out your member and ask him/her if you can come in and talk - that's what we are paying him/her to do.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Hi Graham.

 

All good questions mate.. Im sorry i can't help much, me and polatic's aren't compatible bedfellows..

 

I think GA and indeed RAA are being pushed to the side in lew of profits.. Like others have said, money talk's. And it would appear in sydney at least that that money is saying p!ss off and fly somewhere else.

 

Any new airfield in the sydney sarrounds would eventually come under the same pressure as Hox and others, urban sprawl seems unavoidable and relentlas.

 

In my view, the only way for it to work it would need to be gov't owned and run. They would need to be willing to take a $$ hit on it.. No private company or investor would be immune to looking at the bottom line..

 

Its a real shame what's happening out at camden, but it was always going to happen.

 

What gets my goat is the fact that more and more communities are being pushed right up the threshold's of most strips. So when a cessna cough's on takeoff and ends up shareing a lounge with some guy watching the cricket, the media and pollies all start jumping up and down saying "see, told you so, we need to get rid of these strips"..read between the lines and what they are saying is, thats a lot of room for another houesing development that my old buddy barry is trying to develop..

 

Anyway, sorry, no answers, just more whinging..:mulie:

 

ps, when ya comin down to jaspers??...stranger...:peepwall:

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Yes a good bloke could never work out why it is not used more often. occasionaly you have the FA18's buzzing in and out of the ase. that coal line is a problem but can't see much happening there for a while even tho the surveyers have been doing their thing along the line of late. Free way will be in within 5 years. Even with the overpass it is more than adequate for our use i see the power lines as the main obstacle. be great place for a gathering every few months. only 15 minutes from home or me. there are refueliing facilities from the old Yanda days that need to be brought back on line plus a clubhouse and a small hanger already there. the skydive op is just a small tandem buisiness that go there now and again. be no problems building more hangers plus a small subdivision that back onto the very west end if you want house hanger deal. If i had the bucks i'd buy it outright turn it into a tube and rag airpark. Paul Reese is the owners name. have not spoken with him for a while tho. The owner of the Skydive OP is Glenn Hogan Falls (don't we have fun with that)

 

Ozzie

 

 

[turboplanner]

You've got the picture Merv. The only way to draw a line in the sand is to have the protection of the Fed Gov.

 

The way to that involves communication, otherwise how will they know?

 

Read some of the older books and you'll see a pattern of how the guys worked their butts off in the 20's to get aviation away from the itinerant joyrider culture where the pilot lived under the wing in the nearest paddock.

 

How hard they worked, year after year to establish aviation in this country until most people could afford to fly if they wanted to.

 

Is that level of work being done now for future generations?

 

 

[Guest redleader]

Andrew, I will have to come down that way soon man!!! Been so busy with work took czp for a fly recently and that aspen is a nice piece of gear :) was nailing my steep turns with it :)

 

thanks for the kind words people.

 

Some of the plans that float around in my head are. Bit cautious about letting them out as it gives the oppurtunities for people to counter act them. But what the heck.

 

Orchard Hills or BAdgerys creek. Whilst Orchard hills defence site is ear marked for future housing development that i can see there still exists the oppurtunity for some land in almost a north south direction that could possibiley used for an airfield.

 

BAdgerys creek a lot of the land for the supposed future airport is already owned and is costing the federal govt huge bickies in rental maintance and the residents have a fairly un known future. Whilst people don't want to tolerate jets operating in this area light planes may be tolerated if could seel the provision of quality jobs to an area which does have a slightly higher unemployment compared to the rest of the basin.

 

to keep the costs down of building. Maybe put it to the army engineers as a training exercise. The labour is therefore already paid for by us. It would also provide a unique oppurtunity to do for the army engineers who don't get the oppurtunity to do such things which they do need to know how to do in a war environment. Therefore the main cost is the supply of materials for the building of the runways etc... I know commercial operators would have a fit about this idea but if you can put it in a way that it is a non profit organisation. Or a public trustee run thing I do see some obstacles but not that insurmountable. The army engineers have in the past done a bit of road building for communities and this would be very similar.

 

Make the thing also green friendly. Even though i almost vomit at the silly whole carbon issue... Provide the oppurtunity for some technolgy centre to show case some of the technolgy that can facilitate and associated aviation industry to have very minimal impact on the environment. Plenty of subsides and government funding for this sort of stuff. I.e Think of all the large flat roofs of hangers what you could do with that structure... Also if integrated with the environmental corrider plan that exists out that way you could protect the airport from the future intrusion of housing.

 

Apathy is the condition that is often aflicts us.. In regards to statistics. there is also a lot of information on the costs of congestation in the transport industry to the effects on the economy. Some stuff i have read lately on the supply of commercial pilots is scarey in regards to future commercial needs. The only thing that saved the airlines in supply of pilots to meet the demands by some accouts was the GFC. Bankstown and camden are becoming more and more inefficent and adding so much comercial pressure that the standards have slipped from what i can understand and the ability to perform. As my cfi says as pressure and stress increase performance decreases.

 

Do airport owners have an organisation that they are all affiliated with?

 

I wish i had seen that info about the canberra airfield would have gone down to that but was away for work at the time. I have a lot to learn.

 

 

[Guest watto]

Yep these developers are parasites that are taking over the free world for sure but there has to be a lot of the blame placed on money grabbing local councils who sell out peoples rights to have an airport or aerodrome by allowing developers to encroach on the surrounding buffer zones with houses, and then of course the next step is the residents of the new housing estates complaining about the noise and dangers of an airport so close when it has been there for 50 years.

 

Why do we build on good farming and rural land and then leave all the rubbish land we should build on vacant?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Ever wondered about the "planner" part of my name Watto?

 

I'm sitting here with a truck load of machine guns [not really Feds] and you're insisting on using bows and arrows [again Feds, figuratively speaking]

 

 

[Guest redleader]

I did hear about a system in the UK where valuers go around to surronding estates of airports and ask the owners whether their house is affected by aircraft noise. If they answered yes the land would be instantly de valued with a mark on the land stating that the property was affected by aircraft noise and at the time of the next sale there was full disclosure of the state of the land. The govt basically had the opinion that the airfield was their first and people that whinged about the system were one in full acknowledgement of the situation and if they complained about it they suffered a penalty for it :) my kind of system. It simplified the legal position as well as it was able to limit the amount of the no air craft noise people to go through the courts.

 

 

[Yenn]

Not sure about the airport situation in Sydney area, not having lived there since 1962, but the 6 planes in the circuit max is just proof of controllers unwilloingness to work, not due to safety issues. Consider how many planes 1 controller handles at Oshkosh. They would laugh at a 6 plane maximum.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/general-discussion/21708-if-i-da-king.html

 

Red Leader, some time ago i had a bit of a think at this same problem took a practical view on it. but gave it some of my warped sense of humour. the ideas are workable but unfortunately would never happen unless i was da king. then read the peckerhead responses. pretty much sums up the typical mentality of people. no contribution to a solution. pretty much the same when i posted a thread to see how they would react in asking to band together to remove the GST and other taxes for safety devices such as PLBs and ELBs.just a couple of unrelated peckerhead responses. no wonder pollies don't listen or help promote things like airports. i'm pretty envious of the yanks as they tend to band together as one or more groups to let their pollies know that they don't want things like asic cards, user pay fees airport restrictions and closures and and pretty well get what they belive in or manage to fight it off for a long period. over here the pollies pretty much have a clear run as they know they will not have any group that will fight against them.

 

if you want to go flying best to pack up and head bush mate. sydney is stuffed.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

amazing how fast they are working on getting that coal to the coast. shame they can't get it into the ships any faster so the stock piles will just get bigger.

 

those damm coal trains 140 wagons every 20 minutes they are just about 24/7. a couple of hours break around 2am. we live a klm or 2 away from it and usually wake up around 4 am especially if it is the wagon with the dodgy wheel. hope they spend a bit on noise fencing. must be a nightmare for those living along the line.

 

i think the main reason for the overpass is to stop the drunk soldiers getting cleaned up on the level crossing when they head back to base on sunday morning. one more line there won't make that much difference except for the wait time if the boys have to move out fast.

 

 

[Guest redleader]

Lets just say I am a tenacious person at times. I appreciate the position that a lot of people are apathetic and that will cause issues. However my naivety and optism come into play a bit. Not quite the build it and they will come idea. But you develop a plan do the hard work present the plan and sometimes you won't get the followship that is required but sometimes you do. I guess as said you got to have faith :) Faith is the hope in something not seen yet. The books I read about the early aviators they did have to work hard. Like I know dick smith is hated by a lot of people and that can be a bit of tall poppy syndrome but Just his sphere of influence amazes me because he seemingly does well researched and is a tenacious bugger. So he eventually gets listened to even in a small way.

 

See the thing about the army is. Got to Understand their operations I know of a couple of organisations that have had roads build by them. But that was some 10 15 years ago. I think they need projects that are basically a turn key approach. They get in do the job and then they can walk away to the next thing. I so know that commercial operations would squel about it like a banshee. However like all things their are ways around that. I know of the issues with the rta. Having to tender for their own projects and having to add a premium to their price to make their quote in the same ball park as a commercial operation.

 

In regards to your issue about making gst exempt safety equipment. I know what you are trying to say their. I personally don't have an issue with that. I know i will probably offend here but one of the things that has helped this country has been the gst. It has provided a system which does provide a revenue stream for the government that does get into the black cash society that has gone on for years. providing exemption categories just makes the system more complex. It makes a system regressive as the costs for compliance increases. So a blanket tax on all products and service in my eyes is a good thing when associated with a fair payroll and appropiate pension and welfare system. It promotes people to make decisions about where they choose to spend their money. It does cost money to provide services. I think about if i pay my gst on my personal safety equipment I look at that is going to finance the running and operations of aussar. Even though the money goes in to consolidated revenue yadda yadda. My hatred is actually at the waste of the money that the government chooses to spend in silly areas. That is where we need to hold them accountable. I have written many a letter to my representives in all levels of government. They were well researched and contained a lot of verifiable facts. I know that 2 letters that i have written may have been a contributing factor in too having 2 parlimantery inquiries. Like i said at the outset i am a tenacious bastard at times. But i digress.

 

I just look at what the ceo of cessna has been doing with the driving with the poor public image of aviation during the gfc. I have watched quite a few of his interviews and whilst I may not agree with some of the premises of some of his arguements but he is a man that you can respect and support. It is like IAN being elected to the board of RAA. Sometimes you just got to get in and in a lot of ways it will be a thankless position. HArd work, yadda yadda. My understanding of politics. A large generalisation Is that 40% vote labout 40% vote liberal. They always do cause either their mum and dad did. Its engrained into their dna or whatever, they are apathetic, whatever you want to call it. They hold their views blanketly and just follow the position.. Now the other 20% they don't actually care about the position what they care about is the individual whether they can respect the person that they vote for. That to me is how you gain the traction to get something done.

 

Like to me the issues is mutli faceted like the faces on a diamond. I am in the process of understanding the issues on each of the faces to one day maybe see the gem in its full glory. But to make the gem requires pressure and heat and the seed of carbon. You can never ever forget about the greenies now can we :)

 

 

[Guest redleader]

Destiny flyer. I know what you are saying. No neeed to be sorry. Even hearing that situation doesn't deter me. That speaks to me volumes of how we can become so disheartened by the system. I appreciate your comment.

 

hmmm now where is my friend that has a bit of aboriginal in him to make a claim :)

 

What was your experience with crown land? If don't want to speak about it publicly pm me as i would appreciate hearing the story.

 

 

[Mazda]

It wasn't the controllers who pushed for a 6 aircraft limit, they were just told to implement that.

 

If we actually complied with the published airspace policy the GAAPs would be class D, but plain ordinary ICAO Class D, not the Class D we use in Australia that is more like ICAO Class C. The problem is that we can be our own worst enemy. Instead of saying let's do what they do everywhere else in the world, that seems to work, we say oh no, we can't do it that way, we are special, so we end up with a mixed/amended/confusing system.

 

Plain ordinary Class D is almost the same as GAAP. It has an "implied" clearance, meaning just like we do now, we'd call up and say we were inbound and fly straight in. There is no cap on traffic, that's up to the controller. And most importantly, there are no reporting points. That's what all this review is about - the GAAP incidents/accidents. I'm not sure if the current plan means removing reporting points, I sure hope so. It would mean we'd call however many miles to the north, west etc rather than at Mayfield/Bringelly etc.

 

As for a new airport, I'm all for it, the more the merrier. I would imagine the costs involved would be enormous and the better the facilities, the more expensive it would be. Rated runway surface, lights, instrument approaches etc would not be cheap. Perhaps the people at Wedderburn would have some good information. Power, plumbing, car park. I think the biggest opposition would be from the locals. It is bad enough when people try to close down an existing airport, but imagine the opposition to building a new one.

 

Writing to the local member is one thing, but why not write to the Minister for Transport, Anthony Albanese? In fact, why don't all of us write to him? He's the one responsible for safety, so if we mention the danger of the overcrowded airports (2RN crash, and now with 6 in the circuit aircraft can be held outside the zone, circling around together over houses), he may be prepared to think about it. Maybe. And if he won't, maybe write to senators (like Bill Heffernan, Bob Brown) who would be prepared to ask questions at Senate Estimates.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

It's enough to make you cry ain't it Dexter! or at least beat the living crap out who ever created the mess.

 

Just reading the Sydney Telegraph this morning

 

Seems that the councils and residents around the former site of Sydneys second airport Badgerys Creek, are up in arms with the State and Federal Govts that the land has not ben rezond by the planning dept even tho both federal govts have rejected the place for the second airport over 5 years ago. This is affecting the areas development and residents land values as well as local councils to adjust rates and plan for future public ammentities ect ect ect. The proposed site a huge chunk of land is sitting unused behind a chain link fence.

 

Maybe it is going to take a potential developer to pay the required graft to get things moving out there.

 

Labour, Liberal, Greenies all just a bunch of useless peckerheads. Maybe just knock the lock off the gate mow a strip and claim existing user rights and let it dance around the courts for 20 years.

 

 

[Guest watto]

https://www.recreationalflying.com/xf2/uploads/emoticons/088_censored.gif.2b71e8da9d295ba8f94b998d0f2420b4.gif[/img]

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yeah, got a few birth defects which occurred when I was about two.

 

To rest your fears I did find a good town planner but he was outmanouevred by the brown bag brigade.

 

I certainly have to deal with some bad ones.

 

 

[Guest watto]

All jokes aside, it is a shame that everyplace that people like to go because it is idealic and peaceful the developers get in and screw it up and destroy the very appeal that attracted people in the first place.

 

We have the town of 1770 near us an it certainly has been flogged and is now overpriced yuppiesville.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Watto all those little coastal villages up and down the coast have all suffered the same fate over the last 30 years or so. Very few coastal villages where you can live now without having to suffer from the developers and tourist traps. glad i got out of airlie 8 years ago. since i left it really took off. lots of local shop owners and small biz driven out by the brand names and high rents. Controlled development can be good for a town but it is out of control and just destroys the area 90% of the time.

 

 

[David F]

I still keep coming back to the idea that somewhere in the 768.2 million hectares that make up Australia. There are a few within a reasonable drive of the main population centre that could be set aside for the development and continuation of light aviation.

 

Also in order to protect the tenure of this land it should be owned by as many people as possable some sort of cooperative (or some title that prevents subdivision or redevelopment) For myself I am well set up would like to buy a paddock up the valley some day but would support such a venture.

 

Dave

 

 

[Guest watto]

I do not believe it is good for a town because nothing remains of what was the town!! only someone elses ideal is what they become, a controlled manufactured stereotypical existance, the same shops, the same food outlets, the same resorts, the violence, drugs and the ferals and bludgers as well.