How would Class D operate?

[Guest burbles1]

Just wondering, when all the GAAPs become Class D, would they operate to the same times as the current GAAPs? I can only fly at Camden when it's not a GAAP (i.e. outside tower hours), so would Class D airspace also be intermittent (say, operate on the weekends), or is it permanent (24/7)?

 

 

[Ultralights]

im sure when class D becomes active, the tower hours will be notified. so far it would be safe to assume the same hrs as they currently operate but sadly 7 days a week

 

or, depending on tower staffing? if ASA cannot find the staff, it might just be Class D on weekends, we can only hope.

 

but if you hold a PPL with the easier to get CTA endorsement (ironic huh) then there should be no issue. transponder fitted of course.

 

just had a quick read of the CAO, a as mentioned below, a transponder is only required in Class A and C and above 10,000. not class D or current GAAP.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Guys, Mazda pointed out on another thread that transponders are NOT required for class D.

 

Launceston tower is operational for almost all the times for RPT usually 6:00am to 10:30 pm or thereabouts (its in ERSA) I'm guessing GAAPs will do the same thing re hours when they become class D.

 

Cheers Qwerty

 

 

[Guest Elk McPherson]

if you hold a PPL with the easier to get CTA endorsement (ironic huh)

Ultralights - can you justify that?

 

As a VH-CFI and a RAAus-CFI I know that my students would require the same standard.

 

 

[IanR]

My understanding from what CASA has written is that the towers have to be manned 7 days per week, daylight hours so Camden will be tower all week at the latest from April 2010

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

This is like a time warp for me. I got my PPl in California whilst living there in the 80s and 90s. The class D is a US thing, and has probabily been in use there for at least 20 years or more, which shows just how far we are behind, in going ahead.

 

The class D is so simple and effective, it's not funny. Most towered airports are Class D unless they are Class C. The class D area is generally (but not always ), circular, and are usually 10 nm in Diameter. They can be smaller, or even larger, depending on the particular airport locality. Most are 10 NM and circular. Each circle is depicted on the map (US is a broken blue dotted line), and the freq, Atis if avail, Class D top height, and other data is printed inside the circle. Generally but not always, they will be using a Common Traffic Advisery Frequency. Often they will have a dedicated freq so as not to interfere with other nearby Class Ds.

 

View them as a circular protective zone around a towered (read controlled) airport. Before entering the class D, you have to contact the tower for entry permission, and landing instructions. The tower may or may not be radar equipped, so a transponder may not be required, but you do need an operative VHF. Additionally the Class D will only go up so far, generally 3000 ft, but could be less depending on what's over the top of it. The field I learnt to fly at, San Carlos, had the main approach jumbo jet route into nearby San Francisco International (class B) directly above, so our Class D top was 2000ft. Consequently even as student pilots we had a Class B sign off, just in case we accidently strayed into class B and actually survived.

 

To further complicate things, (not really) a Class D can be sitting out on it's own in the middle of nowhere in class E airspace, ex: Ballina NSW for instance, or may be situated in Class A, B or C airspace. IE: Camden ?. Obviosly if say you are already cleared into Class C, the controller will either 'pass you off' to the class D tower, or request you contact the Class D tower for clearance and entry. You can also be 'passed off' from one class D, to any number of other Class Ds, as some times the class D airports are only a few NM apart, they also can be so close, that thier areas can overlap, and that is generally where they will be working together and will be passing you off one to the other.

 

May sound a bit complicated but it really isn't, and it's only really as hard as you make it. This is piece of the US airspace system that will work well here (if they don't mess with it, Anglify it, or modify it) and personally the quicker they do it, the better we will be off.

 

For those doubting Thomesses out there, remember there are more flights conducted in one day in the US, than we do in this country in one whole year....AND they don't have CASA !!!.....................................................................................

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

I'm getting disappointed already. When Camden starts to operate as Class D, that means I won't be able to fly there at all, any day of the week, unless I fork out more $$$ to train for a PPL! Or, at least try to squeeze in an hour or two of flying in the morning before the tower opens. It seems like our RA freedoms are being eroded (two steps forward, one back?).

 

Dave

 

 

[Ultralights]

Ultralights - can you justify that?As a VH-CFI and a RAAus-CFI I know that my students would require the same standard.

we do the same at YSBK, both RAAus and GA students are taught using the same syllabus. i am basing my comment on the speaking to others around the traps, aparently the GA/GFPT CTA requirements are not as tough as those required for the RAAus CTA requirements. i am at home at the moments, so dont have access to the pubs to verify.

 

and Jaba, if your already RAAus certificated with Cross Country endo, then it wont be much more to get to PPL level. just some basic IF flight under a hood (3 hrs). and some CTA entry and departures with a nav involving the use of radio nav aids.

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Lee Ungermann told me that the RAA syllabus for CTA is more thorough than the PPL syllabus. He has a CPL, and he wrote the RAA syllabus, so that's fairly definitive.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's the crazy part about it Slarti, why would you deliberately choose differing standards; you only have to read these threads to see the confusion - and that's before anyone takes to the air.

 

And sure it's only 3 hours for flight under the hood - that's about $600.00 to every RAA person.

 

Why make excuses for a very poorly thought out situation. Is everyone endorsing this level of management?

 

 

[slartibartfast]

He knew that RAA pilots would be held to a higher standard (because of rampant prejudice and the belief that RAA pilots are poorly trained), and that we would have a better chance of CASA approval if the syllabus was thorough and beyond reproach.

 

It's only a different standard of training. We all fly to the same rules.

 

What is the $600 you mention. Are you saying that if I pay for 3 hours under the hood I can have a PPL? Most RAA to PPL conversions I know of start at $3000. If it were $600 I would have done it already, despite me not really needing CTA.

 

For the odd occasion where being allowed in CTA would be handy, the CTA endorsement on my RAA certificate would be ideal. Ludditism and prejudice are not good enough reasons to shoot it down. I really doubt that the sky would fall if it went through.

 

 

[Yenn]

Since when has it been possible to have a PPL without the ability to enter controlled airspace? My PPL doesn't mention controlled airspace but I legally flew into Essenden, when it was the main airport in Vic, plus Rocky, Mackay and Townsville.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I'm not sure if the Class D is going to be the same as entering class C. If your travelling cross country and your destination airport just happens to be a class D,(IE: with tower) I don't know if you will need a PPL to enter it , or a transponder for that matter.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Damn, I thought that we had sorted all this elsewhere. As I understand it, the situation is as follows:

 

1. To get a PPL you need to

 

a) Pass all of the theory tests.

 

b) Satisfy a GA instructor that you can fly

 

c) havs logged I think it is 2 hrs under the hood (on instruments).

 

The cost of this could range from not much to heaps

 

2. You need a PPL (amongst other things) to enter active controlled airspace, including class D airspace.

 

3. You need a transponder to enter class C but not to enter class D or a GAPP (soon to be irrelavant information).

 

4. If your PPL was issued prior to 1991 you don't need a CTA endorsement.

 

5. If your PPL was issued after 1991 you need a CTA endorsement by an instructor entered in your log book.

 

(For the pedants, if the licence was issued around 1991 the holder needs to check the "changeover date". This doesn't apply to me so I didn't commit the date to memory.)

 

Did I miss anything?

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Jaba, I don't think your question was too difficult, get hold of a VFG and read through operations in controlled airspace and Class D is covered there as well as examples of radio calls etc...as far as hours of operation are concerned, I don't think they will extend hours of operation as that costs money so you should be safe in assuming you will get some uncontrolled flying outside tower hours as you do now...:cool_shades:

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Airservices seem to be only interested in providing ATC for RPT a/c so thier (RPT) schedules should give at least some guidance on what hours of operation of the tower might be expected.

 

 

[Ultralights]

4. If your PPL was issued prior to 1991 you don't need a CTA endorsement.

i know this is a little off topic, but i cant find a CAO reference for this, the reason im asking, my PPL was Issued in 89, but at my last BFR with a school at YSCN, the CFI wouldnt sign me off without the CTA endo.. suffice to say, neither of us could find a reference.

 

 

[IanR]

Folks, the direction to airservices is at http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/oar/papers/direction_airservices.pdf and is very specific about tower hours

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

You are dead right. point number 3. "...hours of daylight..."