HGFA or RAA for trikes?

[cscotthendry]

Hi all:

 

I'm currently training for my basic trike license under the HGFA. A couple of things have become apparent to me about the HGFA; 1)There seems to be significant strife in the management of the association and 2)The HGFA seems to be oriented more towards unpowered fliers. I will probably continue and complete my license with the HGFA, but I would like some opinions as to which is the better organization to belong to for a trike owner.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Hi Scott,

 

All should be known on 17th Sept, by when the current issues confronting the HGFA should be resolved one way or another.

 

As for HGFA versus RAAus for Trikes:

 

HGFA has cheaper aircraft rego fees (Initially for 5 years then 2 year renewals), but more expensive membership/pilot certificate renewal fees comapred to RAAus.

 

In the past there were differences in public liability insurance being offered by each organisation but now they are very similar and in future might be sourced commonly through CASA.

 

Presently you can only fly a trike that is registered with the same organisation your pilot certificate is with although there has been mentyion by some reliable sources that CASA has told HGFA and RAAus to sort out this anomally and nobody seems to know when it will be "sorted".

 

HGFA has greater flexibility in allowing trikes to be registered with more than one wing or vice versa than RAAus which appears unwilling to think outside the box for any requirements not common to 3-axis machines.

 

There are more experienced recreational pilots you can learn from in RAAus, but you don't have to be an RAAus member to benefit from that.

 

Civila Aviation Order 95.32 applies equally to 2 seater trikes in both HGFA and RAAus.

 

Ditto CAO 95.10 for single seater trikes.

 

Then you have to think about what other type of aircraft other than trikes you might ever want to fly.

 

The ultimate portable aircraft, the paraglider comes under HGFA.

 

Recreational Aircraft that you can fly around Oz in comfort at 100kts are RAAus.

 

My 2c worth.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[Tracktop]

A good summary I think Glen :thumb_up:

 

At the end of the day we are in this to fly

 

Both seem to allow us to do that in similar fashion.

 

Any cost difference is so small compared to the overall cost to flying, it's probably not going to make any difference.

 

What else you fly, who else you fly with, and who you train / check flight with is perhaps more important ?

 

Depending on your interest one or other monthly magazine may have better appeal :ne_nau:

 

 

[bushpilot]

I was 30 years in HGFA, then moved my trike to RA-Aus 3 years ago. RA-Aus gives better service, currently more stable Board and Management and cheaper membership. No contest by my measure.. unless you only fly hang-gliders.

 

 

[Kev]

Scott,

 

Be aware that although both organisations comply with CAO 95.32, their respective Operation Manuals continue on from CAO 95.32 and differ considerably at the moment.

 

Apparently this situation is set to change in the future, due to the CASA decree that both organisations will jointly rewrite their Ops and Flying Manuals. The idea is that the playing field will be completely level, and the two organisations will hold hands and play nicely. Also encompassed in this change wil be a raising of the bar with regards to flying training and maintenance standards.

 

I have chosen to remain with the HGFA because of the current board's attitude to raising maintenance & safety standards on trikes.

 

Safe flying

 

Kev

 

 

[Guest AirBorne Flights]

I do believe that too Kev, Well said.

 

Criso:thumb_up:

 

 

[cscotthendry]

The idea is that the playing field will be completely level, and the two organisations will hold hands and play nicely.

Yep, I believe it too! And then there'll be the need for coverage from two organizations because...?

 

 

[Mc Guyver]

Scott,Be aware that although both organisations comply with CAO 95.32, their respective Operation Manuals continue on from CAO 95.32 and differ considerably at the moment.

 

Apparently this situation is set to change in the future, due to the CASA decree that both organisations will jointly rewrite their Ops and Flying Manuals. The idea is that the playing field will be completely level, and the two organisations will hold hands and play nicely. Also encompassed in this change wil be a raising of the bar with regards to flying training and maintenance standards.

 

I have chosen to remain with the HGFA because of the current board's attitude to raising maintenance & safety standards on trikes.

 

Safe flying

 

Kev

Hi Kev,

I have been a joint member of both organisations now for a year (previously only HGFA) and I will not be renewing with the HGFA.

 

With regards to safety standards, in my opinion RAAus is way ahead as far as standards and maintenance courses go as well as brochures etc.

 

Re fees : As far as instructors go the difference is staggering and one would have to pay many times the membership fee at the end of the day.(TIF forms and insurance)

 

The HGFA answer is pass the extra costs on to the TIF or student (this is a no brainer)

 

I was always a loyal HGFA member but the current management seem to have a major problem and I have found them unapproachable.

 

Unfortunately when an instructor changes associations the members at the airfield tend to follow due to Bi Annual check flights etc. and of course any new student would have to be in the same associaton as the instructor.

 

Therefore membership decreases and fees increase??

 

I applaud the hard workers in the HGFA for the effort that they have put in trying to better the association but I do not see microlighting remaining strong in the HGFA due to the cost structure and take it or leave it attitude.

 

It will be interesting to see the results of the Ballot which now closes on the 30th September

 

Please don't me!

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

For me its not so much triking alone that is the decider, its what other forms of aviation you may want to try. For pursuits that include 3 axis RAA is the way to go if you only want a single membership fee per year. If you want to include hang gliding or pwered parachutes then HGFA, pressuming it doesnt self implode shortly.

 

Andy

 

 

[crusty]

HGFA or RAA

 

I have been a member of both organisations purely because of whatever my CFI was in. From my limited experience I feel that neither organisation is a perfect fit for weightshift microlights, but when it is all said and done the carry on with the HGFA is certainly not favourable.

 

I am presently with the HGFA due to reasons mentioned above, but post September who knows.

 

 

 

[avanwyk]

What has happened to this decision for moving HGFA members to Raa? I can not find any info on it.

 

 

[ave8rr]

For me its not so much triking alone that is the decider, its what other forms of aviation you may want to try. For pursuits that include 3 axis RAA is the way to go if you only want a single membership fee per year. If you want to include hang gliding or pwered parachutes then HGFA, pressuming it doesnt self implode shortly.Andy

One Association for all sport aviation then have one Pilot Certificate with endorsements for the type you fly e.g. 3 axis, flexwing, hanglider and powered parachutes etc. It is then easy to convert from one to the other with out the cost of joining another association.

Cheers

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Hi:

 

Just thought I'd update this thread since avanwyk resuscitated it. Since I started this thread, I have not only switched from HGFA to RA-Aus, but I have made the move from trikes to 3-axis flying. On both accounts, the choices turned out well, especially my choice of airplane.

 

Love my Nynja!

 

 

[Glenn Wilson]

So it is now 2017 and the situation is still far from resolved or in any way a sensible solution in servicing the needs of weightshift pilots. Stasis is infectious. FFS! If two bodies that purport to represent sport (powered) flying can't sort this shambles out then they should all become politicians!

 

Not impressed at all.

 

 

[Madmik]

Glenn. Agreed. For both 149 RAAAO's, WM's constitute a minimal membership base that rarely presents the drivers for change. RAA's a far more 'progressive' organisation through a re-vamped engagement model, however a still a considerable way from being a 'member' organisation such as the NRMA/RACV. Members want support rather than regulation which isn't forthcoming from either. RAA are at least engaging and listening to members. HGFA willl further decline over time as the instructor development program exists only as a reference in the Ops Manual rather than a planned program (ie, doesn't exist); RAA is a little more sustainable...

 

 

[facthunter]

Member organisation such as RACV and NRMA? Perish the thought. Nev

 

 

[Madmik]

Member organisation such as RACV and NRMA? Perish the thought. Nev

Why do you '...Perish the thought' Nev? Suggestions on how to improve either/both organisations to meet the triking communities needs welcomed...

That's also an open invite to others to post..

 

 

[Glenn Wilson]

So both the HGFA and the RAAus oversee and regulate the operation of weightshift microlights/trikes. Both organisations have signed a long standing Memorandum of Understanding to standardise the training of WS pilots, the operation of training schools and the registration of WS aircraft. Whether or not both organisations take this MoU seriously is borne out by the results.

 

It does seem pretty ludicrous (or the result of bloody-minded bureaucracy) that one person trained under one banner cannot fly a WS aircraft registered with the other and vice versa. It's like something out of Fawlty Towers and Yes Minister. And this is DESPITE both organisations using the same insurance company for cover of members and the public!!!

 

Is this what our membership fees and aircraft registration fees pay for?

 

I know executives from both organisations read this forum. I would invite both to explain in clear simple terms what they are going to do, and when they are going to do it, to be smart and sensible and resolve this silly, petty and long standing standoff.

 

HGFA and RAAus - over to you guys (and girls).

 

 

[turboplanner]

If you've been trained as a Doctor in Europe, then migrate to Australia, there is a long process of training before you can become a Doctor in Australia

 

So this is not unreasonable; the new organisation needs to assess you, and ensure that you meet the standards they are required to operate to.

 

No one is picking on weightshift either; Even if you have a PPL in GA, you still have to go through the RAA training cycle.

 

The more skills you have the faster it happens.

 

 

[Glenn Wilson]

If you've been trained as a Doctor in Europe, then migrate to Australia, there is a long process of training before you can become a Doctor in AustraliaSo this is not unreasonable; the new organisation needs to assess you, and ensure that you meet the standards they are required to operate to.

No one is picking on weightshift either; Even if you have a PPL in GA, you still have to go through the RAA training cycle.

 

The more skills you have the faster it happens.

Except that this is in the one country, with the one set of flying rules for WS aircraft and two organisations that for some unfathonable reason/s want to hang on to their little patch and not even acknowledge the skills that the members of the other org have. Is it smart and efficient or even safe to have this standoff Turbo?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Except that this is in the one country, with the one set of flying rules for WS aircraft and two organisations that for some unfathonable reason/s want to hang on to their little patch and not even acknowledge the skills that the members of the other org have. Is it smart and efficient or even safe to have this standoff Turbo?

I also gave you the example of the GA pilot who wants to fly RA - both aircraft are three axis, single engine, e.g. A Sportstar registered VH vs a Sportstar registered RA.

You just have to make your choice and do your training.

 

 

[Glenn Wilson]

I also gave you the example of the GA pilot who wants to fly RA - both aircraft are three axis, single engine, e.g. A Sportstar registered VH vs a Sportstar registered RA.You just have to make your choice and do your training.

I always say that the truth lies at the end of the excuses. I guess by your replies Turbo, you are accepting a silly situation whilst acknowledging that it is silly and without putting up constructive suggestions as to how to rectify the silly situation. Analogies aside, what would you suggest apart 'just having to make your choice and do your training". How about if a HGFA trained and very experienced WS pilot comes and visits and wants to fly a RAAus trike in my care, and I have to say no - becus de rules is de rules!

 

 

[turboplanner]

What do you think happens in the case of the Sportstar?

 

 

[facthunter]

Don't model on those 2 organisations. I don't disagree WE need better representation of our views. (This is a few hours out of date) Reply to Madmik...Nev

 

 

[Glenn Wilson]

What do you think happens in the case of the Sportstar?

Unless the Sportstar is a weightshif microlight and can be registered and flown under both the HGFA and the RAAus banners then it is irreverent in the context of this conversation.