Tiger Country

[Guest zurtri]

Hi guys,

 

Was reading an article last night that referred to "Tiger Country"

 

As a student pilot I have never heard this term.

 

what exactly is Tiger Country?

 

 

[Guest zurtri]

Ok cool.

 

Is there anything special I should know about it other than I am far from civilisation?

 

 

[slartibartfast]

It applies specifically to country which provides no place to land. Flying over the Blue Mountains for example is almost completely "tiger country".

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

The term 'Tiger country" I believe came from WW2 aviators who flew the 'hump' in Burma and india above endless jungle that was indeed frequented by tigers.

 

 

[alf jessup]

I see it as hostile rugged country that the only thing that would inhabit it is tigers and not the most favorable place to put down.

 

Me I have plenty of it starting 17nm to the north and extending right through to Bright

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[alf jessup]

Destiny,

 

I'd be up for a change of name hmmmmm maybe ifdismotastopsdisisgunnahurt country:ah_oh:

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[skeptic36]

You could maybe, possibly, by some stretch of the imagination be flying over tiger country in tassie

 

 

[Simonflyer]

Is it ever used as a term for flying over any stretch of flight where landing easily is not a possibility like over an urban sprawl in an RA plane where we arent allowed into CTA or GAAP?

 

I could have sworn that Id heard the term used in that way??:confused:

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

i have been referring to 'it' as "Boom Boom Country"

 

if it goes to crap my heart starts going 'BOOM BOOM BOOM'

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

In Tassie we have plenty of tiger country and the name is apt as that is where any tigers will be. The term is used exclisively for uninhabited terrrain that is inhospitable for landing. Don't forget that there were tigers on the north island :stirring pot: too not that long ago.

 

By the way there is plenty of advice given about avoiding tiger country. I've read articles (particularly in the RAAus magazine) where some pilots resfuse to fly over tiger country and then pour scorn on anyone who does. The decision for them not to fly over tiger country is fair enough, thats their decision but to then imply that its poor airmanship to do so is a bit over the top. If you don't fly over trger country, you won't be doing anything much interesting in Tassie. And with that attitude a Bass Strait crossing is also out of the question.

 

If I didn't have confidence in the engine, I wouldn't leave the ground...never mind tiger country. I know engine outs do occour but aircraft are statistically reasonably safe from an out over tiger country.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's called Russian Roulette Qwerty.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Good morning Turbo.

 

Explain Russian roulette, and be careful, I get a bit cranky about this, remember I need to justify (to my self) flights over tiger country or fly in tiny little circles near the strip.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You cannot guarantee you will not have an engine failure - something which is outside your control.

 

It may be more likely if you pick the wrong engine (not make) because every manufacturer has a failure rate, usually more than 3%

 

It may be more likely if you fail to maintain the engine's specifications correctly

 

It may be more likely if you use fuels and oils not designed for the engine

 

It may be more likely if the aircraft is a home built

 

It may be more likely if critical nuts/connectors aren't wire locked etc

 

It may be more likely if someone has added some electrical componentry and not increased cable diameter

 

There's a lot of potential here for a bullet to find its way into the chamber.

 

The significant difference in safety consideration between a car and an aircraft is that if an engine fails or if you run out of fuel you don't just roll to a stop.

 

It's all in the getting down without wrapping yourself around a tree.

 

The key to a safe flight is to always have a rat hole, and it would be interesting to see how many people know their glide ratio and use it for planning purposes, and how many people have physically checked it.

 

Using this simple precaution you can flight plan your altitude to suit gliding distance to suitable survivable forced landing sites, in which case the area is no longer tiger country.

 

I'm pretty sure there is an example of this in the latest RAA magazine.

 

Qwerty I just had a look on Google Earth around George Town and there's heaps of non-treed areas you can hop to.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Lets analyse what is actually happening here and do some calcs on engine failures and comfort levels.

 

Lets say just for argument's sake that the engine is maintained and operated properly. I have no idea why anyone would leave the ground with anything less.

 

Most people, me included, are comfortable flying a well maintained engine over relatively open country but for the country over which the bulk of flying hours are accumulated, this is farms and paddocks near large towns and cities. The truth of the situation is that a forced landing is quite possibly going to result in a tangle with a fence, or a ditch which has a reasonably high probability of ending inverted. Even in tiger country, you are often (not always but often) able to glide to a reasonably clear area where you will probably hit small trees and scrub rather than the tops of 100 ft trees. The result of landing in small trees and scrub is most likely going to end inverted and probably with more damage to the aircraft.

 

So the first point I would like to make is that everything is not fine and dandy and you are not 100% safe just because you are over head grass. May be you are 80% safe. Similarly you are not dead with an engine out just because you are overhead some trees. In my experience even in the some of the worst tiger country there is a almost always a relatively clear area where you could get down and survive and probably won't destroy that a/c.

 

If you fly over patch of tiger country that is 10 Nm across at 3000 ft AGL in an aircraft with a glide ration of 10:1 (mine BTW), you canglide to the edge. 10 Nm is a lot of tiger country.

 

Now lets look at something a bit more challenging, say Yarram - Benalla across the range. Apart from the Canarvon Gorge area and SW Tas, this is the "worst" flight I have undertaken. At first sight it looks like 55 or 60 NM of tiger country, but there are open paddocks at Licola in the south and at Mansfield in the north only 32 Nm apart. LSALT 5500, lets say I choose to fly at 8500 (due terrain), I can glide 12.5 Nm back to just north of Licola at 1000 ft AMSL or forward 11 nm to just south of Mansfield at 2000 ft AMSL. That leaves about 10 NM (15 Nm at worst) when I was over tiger coutry and can't glide to a paddock. 10 Nm at 115 Kn exposes me for 6 minutes to the prospect of having to find clear ridge or a clear road for a forced landing line IF the engine goes.

 

In many hours of flight time I have not had that many engine outs. If I multiply together the probablities of an engine out during that specific 6 minutes, by the probability of not finding some sort of cleared area in the 5 or 6 minutes of glide time that I have, by the probability of getting hurt worse than in a forced landing in a paddock. And I compare this with a similarly calculated probability of getting hurt through an engine out over paddocks. The difference is next to nothing.

 

There is a break-even point where the risk of flight over tiger country is equal to the risk associated with extended flight time to go around the tiger country. I suspect that you dont have to fly for very much longer to actually be at higher risk than taking a direct route.

 

The result of all of this is that with thought and planning, flight over seemingly insane terrain is not much more of a risk than most other flight. Except of course through outback NSW and QLD where you are flying over pretty much continuous airfield. I would contend that I am at far higher risk of serious injury in my kitchen, crossing the road or in my car on the way to the airstrip and I and most people take those risks without thought.

 

 

[turboplanner]

In many hours of flight time I have not had that many engine outs.

My point, to you and Destiny, is that an engine doesn't take any notice of whether the pilot is confident or not, and your multiple engine failures serves to remind everyone that these things do happen.

 

Having said that, you've put the scenario very well in terms of minimising this risk, and shown how it's possible to safely traverse "tiger" country.

 

The second point I'd like to make is that since the mid '80's we lost the legal ability to decide whether to take a risk or not. As we've seen in past discussions, when this comes to light after an accident many insurance companies enforce their non payout clause, and if someone else gets injured you can also face criminal charges where it is shown that you knew that what you were doing represented an increased risk.

 

So the good old hero days are over.

 

An example to underline this point is the announcement this week by the Federal Government that Front Underrun Protection Systems (FUPS) will become mandatory on heavy trucks in Australia from 2010, and they expect this to save 10 lives per year.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Flew over lots of Tiger country last week ferrying A Savannah Casino to Townsville. One, it's all got to do with the engine with me. I have LOTS of Xcountry time now behind 912s, they have an excellent track record with me, so I trust them like no other. But it could quit, being a machine, so if I am over tiger country I'll either have the height sufficient to make it to a suitable area, and this may require you adjust course slightly to keep within gliding distance of a suitable area. Sometimes you just have to go with what you have below and hang on. It the time to make those phone calls, eat some lunch, or have a chat to somebody on the radio.......................

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

If you are going to spend your time flying being prepetually worried about engine failure, why the hell fly. Do th e maintenance and fly the aircraft and enjoy it. One ov my mate says that the engine doesn't know that its over tiger country or water.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Yes but hey, don't you always get that 'automatic rough' kicking in over TC. ?? It doesn't worry me too much if I'm real high. But there is the old saying:' If you don't want to land in it, don't fly over it !' Maybe that saying should be amended to 'If you don't want to land in it , don't fly over it too low !!'............................

 

 

[farri]

Maj is probably right in his explaination of how "Tiger Country" got it`s name.

 

I`ve always used the term " Tiger Country " and taught that this is any area where,if the engine stops,there is no suitable place to land saftely and the chances of injury or death are almost certain.

 

Frank.

 

 

[mAgNeToDrOp]

In most cases diversions to ensure you are almost always within gliding distance of non - "tiger country" will only add a few minutes to your flight time, the difference is negligible.. for peace of mind and a more enjoyable flight, why not. Granted its not always possible but its up to the pilot to set his own minimum safety standards, limits etc, for me,if I can help it, it will always be flying over country I am likely to survive a forced landing. Its not something I'll lose sleep over planning the flight but minimise risk where I can

 

 

[farri]

mAgNeToDrOp,You`re spot on.:thumb_up:

 

Safety is stacking as many things as possible in our favour and gliding distance to a safe landing area is one of the most important.

 

We must continue to stress this point.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

A good post.

 

An experinced Piper pilot once told me that he could glide his plane to a point on the ground that was level with his wing-tip. I converted this to my 230 and with practice found that the pitot tube on the strut was the distance that I could glide. Ofcourse this point would vary with the pilots height and seat padding etc. But having done this a few times now (in practice) I can confidently fly over Tiger as long as I can see clear country below the pitot.

 

Hope that this will help.

 

Phil.

 

 

[Mazda]

I'm with Qwerty on this one.

 

Everything we do in flying is about risk management. How much risk you are prepared to take dictates what you do. If you don't want to risk injury from an aircraft accident at all, don't fly, and don't live near an airport!

 

How much risk are you (or your passengers) prepared to take? After all, it is a risk for passengers to fly on 767s, they only have 2 engines, while a 747 has 4. There IS a chance both engines will fail. The airlines work under ETOPS guidelines to calculate the statistical risk of both engines failing at once, and decided the chance was so slight it was acceptable - but there is a risk.

 

As a passenger, would you want the 767 to avoid flying over tiger country, or would you accept that risk to get to your destination sooner and pay less for your ticket through flying a shorter distance?

 

It's the same for us, on a different scale of course. If you are not happy flying over tiger country, don't do it. But depending on where you live, you might not ever go anywhere. If you ever work commercially, your boss might wonder why your charter flights are so much longer (more fuel, late passengers).

 

So if you only fly for fun, it's a short diversion to fly on a safer route, you would prefer to have more options and don't mind paying for extra fuel, avoid the tiger country if you want to. If you are flying commercially or you live in an area where the only way to get somewhere is over tiger country, you need to be prepared to take a calculated risk and fly over it. Maintain your aircraft well, check the weather etc. It's like night flying. That has risks too, some are prepared to take them, some are not.

 

 

[Vorticity]

Its not weather you are over tiger country its if you can glide away. I have been amazed the last 2 times I have flown Gympie-Kilcoy. Each time I was up quite high and watch an aircraft well below cutting accross some horrible terrain. I guess it is up to you but I dont want my last conversation with a passenger being an explaination of why the tecnam has turned glider and we are heading into the timber.

 

Maybe its those of us who learn to fly in 2 strokes that have a fear for tiger country!

 

 

[skybum]

Top thread! If you have good instructors, it is something that is just hardwired into your training....allways have an "OUT" plan. EFATO, enroute, where ever...I found I am doing it without even thinking about it. It isn't a fear response it just....planning ahead!