Getting your LAME level 2

[shags_j]

Hi All,

 

Just a quick query from a friend, he wasn't to know what is involved to become a LAME, say level 2 ish.

 

Cheers,

 

Shags

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi shags, LAME is different to L2. LAME,s are govern by CASA. L2 are governed by RAA. A LAME can easily become a L2 due to formal qualifications. I have inquired myself about level 2, i was a aircraft technician in the RAAF on F111's for 10 years and a crew chief on Saudi tornado,s for two years. I just have to gain some hand on experience on ultralights and be recommened by two level 2,s. (personally i think its a crock of $%&^), since i spent 12 years working on aircraft with formal training. hope this helps

 

 

[shags_j]

Sorry didn't realise the difference. So how do become a level 2. Do you need to just work with some for a while then receive recommendations from them or are there courses you can do.

 

Also wouldn't mind doing a course or two myself. Am looking at purchasing an aircraft in the next year or two and would like to be able to at least understand how the aircraft works mechanichally a little better.

 

CHeers,

 

Shags

 

 

[dazza 38]

Basically it depends what you do for a living. If you have a trade like mechanical or similar (it doesnt have to be aircraft trade) it would show the RAA that you are competent in using tools etc. If you dont have a trade background , i think it is still do able . But you must gain hand on experience on aircraft (same as for people with a trade background)AND be signed off by TWO Level 2 maintence authority holders. Its is explained in the operations manual. There are level one courses ran by the RAA at different locations around Aust. (airfields), from time to time. Which is a fantasic idea for people who dont know much about BASIC a/c maintence. Since once you complete your Pilot certificate you are a L 1. ie. you CAN work on your OWN A/C. Remember it cannot be used for flying training unless it is serviced by a level 2 or higher. ps- sorry for the whinge i had in the first thread, but if i can work on jets, i know i wouldnt have a problem work on light aircraft. you just have to carry out the service as per the maintence manual. If you dont know how to perform a specific task, you get someone with experience to help you CHEERS

 

 

[shags_j]

Thanks Dazza. That's what I thought. So there are no courses run or anything.

 

For me I want a course like introduction to aviation maintenance to get some understanding on it all. Especially for people like me who spend all day looking at a computer screen and only fly on weekends.

 

TBH I think a lot of pilots would appreciate courses like this.

 

 

[dazza 38]

i just added to my post i forgot to mention the courses. sorry about that

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Dazza, I hear what you are saying re; experience etc. Only some of your other aircraft work can be suitable for UL work. There are some out there with heaps of GA or larger aircraft experience, but can be positivly dangerous around ULs. For instance unless you've flown 2 strokes a lot, you probabily don't really know much about them. And then there's the GA mechanics who automatically get a L2, and go ahead and put aviation grade oils into 912 engines, against Rotaxs recomendations, and proceed to quickly ruin the gearboxs, and sprague clutchs. Uls are a bit of different and specialized gear at times, and those who have been playing with them a long time, are the best ones to be fixing them IMOP..........Cheers Maj....................................................

 

 

[dazza 38]

I totally agree ross, you are right, UL are different/special in some areas, but aircraft maintence skills should be adaptable to any aircraft. Along as personnel are sensible and receive type specific training on particular airframes, engines etc. from existing level 2,s. I have also heard of LAME,s etc who dont do the research and have used the incorrect oils etc. example- rotax 912, different oil if used with Avgas than with unleaded. It can be very dangerous for maintence personnel to work on an engines like 2 strokes etc or certain a/c components with out certain training. Comming from the RAAF and British aerospace back ground it was easily avaliable to obtain and gain the experience, via courses and working with experience maintence crews . People aspiring to become level 2,s (even LAMES) etc need to and should work with existing level 2,s if possible to gain the knowledge and experience on specific a/c, engine types, especially as the maintence manuals on some a/c can be very vague in how the are written. Thank you

 

 

[Yenn]

I doubt that an experience of modern aluminium skinned aircraft would be a perfect base for working on wood and wire braced aircraft, plus fabric skins.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Know doubt Yenn, but it is better than NO aircraft experience. At leased we know what to look for ie- things like corosion, wire chaffing, things out of the ordinary that need further investigation,etc the last time i looked ,there were more than just wood and fabric aircraft on the RAA register

 

 

[Thruster87]

I doubt that an experience of modern aluminium skinned aircraft would be a perfect base for working on wood and wire braced aircraft, plus fabric skins.

Before you become a LAME you are an AME and prior to that an apprentice which is a 4 yr course and we covered just about all types of aircraft structures including helicopters.So please don't carry on about what a LAME doesn't know until you have done the trade.The LAME is the specialist [type rated] and the AME is the general fixer.

 

 

[Vorticity]

I'm interested, does the training and experience journal for the LAME certification cover fabric and timber now? If I am getting a LAME for anything on my plane now I do a fair bit to suss them out, I made the mistake of implicitly trusting a LAME/L2 and I won't again.

 

It was my first aircraft, a great deal, drifter for $10k. It had a good engine but the airframe was a bit tired. I had experience with metal and composites but not fabric. During the condition report the L2 commented that the skins look kind of faded and asked me what I thought. I didn't have anything to add so he signed it up as servicable.

 

I flew from Gatton to Lismore a few weeks later to have Wayne fisher overhaul my new beast. On arrival he came accross shaking his head. He stepped up on the wheel and put his hand through the skins!!!

 

The guy servicing virgin 737s or king airs might know nothing about fabric just the same as Wayne probably can't be put to use on that 737. It's all about what you are experienced and current for.

 

 

[Tracktop]

I guess as in any trade or profession there are the good and the bad, the care and the careless, the knowers and the think they are knowers. If you need to use them then as best you can, research, judge and be happy before you commit if possible.

 

 

[Thruster87]

I'm interested, does the training and experience journal for the LAME certification cover fabric and timber now? If I am getting a LAME for anything on my plane now I do a fair bit to suss them out, I made the mistake of implicitly trusting a LAME/L2 and I won't again. It was my first aircraft, a great deal, drifter for $10k. It had a good engine but the airframe was a bit tired. I had experience with metal and composites but not fabric. During the condition report the L2 commented that the skins look kind of faded and asked me what I thought. I didn't have anything to add so he signed it up as servicable.

 

I flew from Gatton to Lismore a few weeks later to have Wayne fisher overhaul my new beast. On arrival he came accross shaking his head. He stepped up on the wheel and put his hand through the skins!!!

 

The guy servicing virgin 737s or king airs might know nothing about fabric just the same as Wayne probably can't be put to use on that 737. It's all about what you are experienced and current for.

It did when I did my training [theory only and a look and see how it was done ] including what to look out for which is what a LAME/ AME main job is [inspections].An LAME and a L2 to that fact as well are liable, so one would think it is in their best interests to know what they are signing off.

 

 

[facthunter]

Maintainer level 1 & 2.

 

What you know and the ticket that you hold are two separate things. You Can maintain YOUR aircraft in most circumstances with an L1.

 

The RAAus doesn't want people to hold an L2 unless they are actively working on other peoples aircraft, and keep all the bookwork up to date to substantiate it.

 

All the comments about the relevance of your prior training, are significant. There are speciallised techniques applying in materials etc. and I doubt whether many individuals would have an across-the -board capability, no matter what their book qualifications.

 

IF you don't want to work on other aircraft and sign them out, don't get an L2. Nev..

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

... I doubt whether many individuals would have an across-the -board capability, no matter what their book qualifications.

Quite so & I believe that "new issue" L2 are generally limited to a specific type or genre of aircraft &/or engines

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Thruster87]

What you know and the ticket that you hold are two separate things. You Can maintain YOUR aircraft in most circumstances with an L1. The RAAus doesn't want people to hold an L2 unless they are actively working on other peoples aircraft, and keep all the bookwork up to date to substantiate it.

All the comments about the relevance of your prior training, are significant. There are speciallised techniques applying in materials etc. and I doubt whether many individuals would have an across-the -board capability, no matter what their book qualifications.

 

IF you don't want to work on other aircraft and sign them out, don't get an L2. Nev..

When you go thru the training program they don't discriminate on the type of aircraft you are going to work on in the future,therefore it is across the board,so it does prepare you to continue training and learning more complex systems etc later on in your career.Cheers

 

 

[dazza 38]

When you go thru the training program they don't discriminate on the type of aircraft you are going to work on in the future,therefore it is across the board,so it does prepare you to continue training and learning more complex systems etc later on in your career.Cheers

Hi Thruster, we also trained on helicopters, (even though the ARMY had taken them over ). Well surprise surprise, i ended up doing a stint on the Blackhawk, Repair and overhaul of undercarriage and Rotor head components. THAT IS WHY I HAVE TRIED TO EXPLAIN IN THE ABOVE THREADS, WE COVERED ALOT OF THEORY ON ALL AIRCRAFT STRUCTURES. INCLUDING FABRIC, COMPOSITES ETC. CHEERS

 

 

[shags_j]

See how awesome would that be. I'm just an accountant, how boring...

 

 

[foxworker]

Look at it from this point of view;would you positively sign off aircraft maintenance or repair work you have performed, on an aircraft your dear mum's about to fly around Australia in? If you can't absolutely answer "yes" to that,stay away,whether you have qualifications or not. I have approval from Ra-Aus tech manager to rebuild and refurbish skyfox wings. I've recently finished a Skyfox 22a starboard wing,leading edge spa replacement and trailing edge refurb. There was a previous repair carried out by a lame that was very poorly done and required rework. So much for relying purely on qualifications; some aircraft work requires very specialised skills and plenty of experienced. Over 3000 hours building Skyfox wings in the factory and approx. 1200 hrs manufacturing associated parts more than qualifies me to repair and rebuild these structures. You are right however,if one has qualifications,above average theoretical knowledge, being unfamiliar with the aircraft shouldn't be a major problem. In saying that, some people tend to have largish egos which unfortunatily greatly diminishes their ability to listen to others;the consequences being poor workmanship and potential disaster down the track. Myself and a student on board, were nearly seriously injured in a light aircraft crash,many years ago now,that never should of happened. A well qualified ex. Raaf trained airworthiness manager failed to take the advice from an apprentice at the time,(referring to a control column problem), and hey presto. bang, I was the next unfortunate person to fly the plane. Arrogance is the enemy of the L2,ame or lame.

 

 

[Tomo]

See how awesome would that be. I'm just an accountant, how boring...

But you probably make twice/three times more of this $$$$

 

 

[shags_j]

Money will only get you so far.

 

 

[Thruster87]

Look at it from this point of view;would you positively sign off aircraft maintenance or repair work you have performed, on an aircraft your dear mum's about to fly around Australia in? If you can't absolutely answer "yes" to that,stay away,whether you have qualifications or not. I have approval from Ra-Aus tech manager to rebuild and refurbish skyfox wings. I've recently finished a Skyfox 22a starboard wing,leading edge spa replacement and trailing edge refurb. There was a previous repair carried out by a lame that was very poorly done and required rework. So much for relying purely on qualifications; some aircraft work requires very specialised skills and plenty of experienced. Over 3000 hours building Skyfox wings in the factory and approx. 1200 hrs manufacturing associated parts more than qualifies me to repair and rebuild these structures. You are right however,if one has qualifications,above average theoretical knowledge, being unfamiliar with the aircraft shouldn't be a major problem. In saying that, some people tend to have largish egos which unfortunatily greatly diminishes their ability to listen to others;the consequences being poor workmanship and potential disaster down the track. Myself and a student on board, were nearly seriously injured in a light aircraft crash,many years ago now,that never should of happened. A well qualified ex. Raaf trained airworthiness manager failed to take the advice from an apprentice at the time,(referring to a control column problem), and hey presto. bang, I was the next unfortunate person to fly the plane. Arrogance is the enemy of the L2,ame or lame.

The main job that a LAME does is inspections/paper work if he comes across a defect he has the option of doing it himself or getting someone else to do it.That is why there are for example sheetmetal aircraft techs out there who only do sheetmetal repairs and thus have a lot of experience [more then the LAME] but who don't have the knowledge of the overall structures.That is why the LAME certifies the sheetmetal workers work.So stop nit picking and look/find a LAME who suits your requirements. Cheers

 

 

[Vorticity]

Hi Thruster, we also trained on helicopters, (even though the ARMY had taken them over ). Well surprise surprise, i ended up doing a stint on the Blackhawk, Repair and overhaul of undercarriage and Rotor head components. THAT IS WHY I HAVE TRIED TO EXPLAIN IN THE ABOVE THREADS, WE COVERED ALOT OF THEORY ON ALL AIRCRAFT STRUCTURES. INCLUDING FABRIC, COMPOSITES ETC. CHEERS

You must have been lucky to get some training for fabric and timber with the raaf, they guys now don't. What types did you score experience on?

 

 

[foxworker]

Nit picking,dear,o'dear.

 

Again arrogance and big ego's;absolutly no room in aviation for such people. You get good doctors and bad doctors; good lame's and bad lame's. By the way,if one has little knowledge of the underlying structure that they are to about to re-sheet, then one should remove him/herself from the task at hand and allow an experienced,capable person to do the job. Also, lames sign off; certifying is another matter all together. It's about safety, responsibility, and a very high standards of workmanship;these are flying machines NOT motor cars. No room for damn ego's.cheers.