And now for something completely different! (First J160 Flight)

[Thx1137]

Well, I had my flight in a Jabiru 160 today. I swear, it felt like my TIF!

 

All I have ever flown is the SportStar. They are a nice, well built machine with a reputation for being easy to fly. Thats not wrong!

 

Riddle me this batman: "how many times can you hear 'more right rudder' and still not do it (the foot relaxes)!". Answer. Dunno but when I find out I will let you know! :-)

 

I got to compare the SportStar to a J160 and to be honest. I had trouble with all my basics such as checks and, use the radio? hah! I was too busy going "what the!"! Good old human factors. Get overloaded and you can almost forget to breath :-)

 

We took off and did a bit of "straight and level". I think that was OK. The trim was very stiff and seeing how it actually operates I guess I can see why. It does not move a trim tab but moves the whole elevator. I did some S turns to try and get a feel for countering the large amount of adverse yaw (at least compared to the sporty), again, not too bad.

 

We joined the circuit and I had a bunch of problems there:

 

1. Power setting. We were very heavy and a small amount of power change made a really big difference. Maybe I really only had problems with this because of number 2.

 

2. The throttle on a SportStar has both course and fines modes. Push/pull for course, twist for fine. I found it darn near impossible to do the small changes that I pretty much do automatically in the SportStar. I missed the twist!

 

3. The cockpit layout is completely different and it affected my checks more than I thought because I kept looking in the wrong place and the little interruptions caused me to then have to think "where was I in the checklist?". This is small but it takes your eye off the ball. Fortunately it shouldn't take long to get into the swing.

 

4. The yoke/stick. Besides being in a different hand, it feels completely different. It also has an amount of 'play' in it. I dunno if/how much the play affected things and didn't notice it during flying but it is something the SportStar doesn't have.

 

5. Approach corrections.

 

a. I was mainly using aileron and only a little footwork. That is no good at all. Lots of feet needed here.

 

b. Taking all the power off when over the fence. It really wanted to plumet! It really wanted to wait until I was in ground-effect to dial it all off.

 

c. In the Jabiru we basically sit at an angle facing inwards. This means when I was trying to line-up I was actually flying to the left of the runway. (we had two flights, during the second backtrack I was able to see where "straight" was)

 

6. Takeoff. I kept pumping the rudder because I would keep relaxing my right leg (I use enough rudder in the sporty so don't really know why I had so much problem here)

 

Some of these things I was expecting, some I wasn't and some affected me more than I would have thought. During the second set of circuits I did better so that makes me happy. I didn't do 'good', that will have to wait for next week. :-)

 

I couldn't say I enjoyed my first flight of the J160 but not many of us enjoy being taken far out of our comfort zone (I hated feeling like such a newbie but there it is!). It is almost purely a matter of getting used to the differences so I will persevere. Even if you licence says your allowed to fly a particular type of aircraft I knew it was sensible to get lessons on a new aircraft before flying one but this has driven home that it really is not optional and probably requires more hours than some of us think! (I guess lots of experience on different aircraft types mitigates this but not having such experience I don't really know!)

 

Steven.

 

 

[Ultralights]

just a little tip for fine control of Jabiru Throttles, when you grab the throttle, point a finger forward into the panel. like your making a pistol with your hand. as you push the throttle in with your hand, you can push your finger against the panel to provide resistance and this makes fine control of the throttle very easy.

 

also dont forget the Sportstar is a $150,000 aircraft, the J160 is a $70,000 aircraft. like comparing a cheap reliable Corolla to a nice refined BMW.

 

as for check problems and layout, you will get that with any aircraft, i had the same issues in my early days when flyng Cherokees and cessnas.

 

 

[Thx1137]

Yeah. Was trying to do the finger thing. Just need practice :-)

 

I have no real complaints about the Jabiru it is just me needing to get used to it. It would be perfect for me if it had the SportStar throttle and stick but obviously not necessary. If other people can fly it then I am sure I can get used to it :-)

 

 

[flyinghigh]

Great observations and writeup Steven. I did my initial training in GA, going through C152, PA-28, DA-20 and C172. Each was a little different, but the DA-20 being a brand new aircraft really took some getting used to (responsive controls, stick between the legs, modern engine). I can see why so many schools just use the C152 and C172 - it really is a breeze to go from one to another.

 

When I came to RAAus, the J160 was my introduction. I too felt like I'd never flown before. Lots of rudder, lots of power management, lots of trimming. But man, it sure makes you learn how to use all of your controls - and I promise that if you can fly the J160 well, you'll fly just about anything well! I now instruct in the 160 & 230, and so find myself in the right hand seat observing exactly what you experienced in that flight. Don't worry - it'll take a few laps of the circuit but it will come to you.

 

You will need LOTS of rudder during takeoff roll and climb. The only time you can really relax use of that rudder is in S&L flight with cruise power settings (assuming the aircraft has been been refined with a manual trim tab attachment on the rudder - if not, your experience may differ). In terms of reducing power in the circuit, it can be a challenge - the Jabiru's are slippery little buggers - it's just a matter of making sure you get CH heat on and reduce the power adjacent to the threshold, and keep that nose on the horizon! We recently tried adjusting the circuit to wait until the turn onto base to reduce power - it's very effective as by the time the turn is done, you're in the white arc. But, you really need to be ahead of the aircraft and be flying accurately, or you'll find yourself turning final too high. Regards the touchdown, I personally would suggest keeping some power on all the way down to rear wheels on the ground - not a lot, maybe 1400RPM or so (set by speed, not RPM). You'll find the aircraft easier to manage that way - and if you cut the power too high (more than 5'), and don't lower the nose a suitable amount, control effectiveness will be lost, you may float and you'll probably bounce the aircraft off the tarmac.

 

Of course, all advice above is worth what you paid for it, and if it differs from what you're being taught, discuss it with your instructor first. Welcome to the Jabiru fraternity - we're not fancy, but we're cheap (and fun, and strong, and aussie made!)

 

 

[Thx1137]

hehe, thanks flyinghigh. Yes that is pretty much what I was told to do and after not doing it, saw the effects. It helps consolidate it :-)

 

As for being ahead of the plane, I feel like I have left the carpark and now only a 100 meters behind the aircraft it so next session I hope to be in front :-) One of my SportStar instructors used to say that I had a death grip on the stick. I think I may have left finger imprints in the Jabiru! :-)

 

 

[Captain]

5. Approach corrections. b. Taking all the power off when over the fence. It really wanted to plumet! It really wanted to wait until I was in ground-effect to dial it all off.

It all seems like pretty normal familiarisation stuff when going from one type to another ... except for the above Item 5(a).

 

I've never experienced any Jabiru "plumeting" when the power comes off. There is something wrong there, as many new pilots winge about them "floating" too much on landing, only one of the responses mentions them as being "slippery".

 

 

[Tomo]

Yeah, I'm with Captain there... It's interesting to hear that it wants to do that.

 

Are you doing steep approaches? or flatter powered ones? Obviously with power on, you mustn't be to steep on the approach, so maybe you need a little higher approach speed, so when you take off the power you have a little bit more momentum to keep things smooth. What approach speeds are you doing?

 

 

[Thx1137]

About 70kts from memory. No steep approaches. This is all pretty subjective of course. I certainly got a surprise when I dialed all the power off. I think there were two parts to this. 1. We were heavy. 2. I have trouble making fine throttle changes. So, instead of smoothly dialing off the last of the power, it was rather abrupt. I know if I were smoother I would not have had an "oh dear!" moment. :-)

 

I don't think there is much to be concerned with as far as the aircraft goes. I know my approaches were really poor, when the instructor did them it was all nice and smooth both his control handling and the flight so it was me, not the machine.

 

 

[Trevor]

Hi all , I trained in the Jab 160 and agree with Flyhigh"s comments. I found it a bit of a challenge at first and did have a couple of "hard bouncy landings" untill I obtained the skill required to use the power correctly. [ as my instructor had told me to do ] Much better to bring her in with 1200 - 1400 revs and pull power as the mains touch. Anyway that is how I found it - for what its worth. All the best, Trevor

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Ttx, may I ask, who were you flying with? A school or a private owner. If a school, I'm guessing it was at Murray Bridge. I know there's a syndicate with a J160 at Aldinga but I doubt you would be in the left hand seat if it was theirs.

 

 

[Guest Pioneer200]

Last night I did a check ride in our clubs Alpi Pioneer 200.

 

I had not flown the pioneer for over a year and what a difference getting back in that after doing most of my training in a JAB 160.

 

It really is a docile plane to fly compared to the jab.

 

That being said , one of our instructors last night at a meeting said that the best pilots in our club have been trained in the Jabiru, it needs to be flown!!

 

The Pioneer has done about 1000 hours, many of these training and they just don't stand up to the abuse of hard landings like the Jab does.

 

The Pioneer undercarriage has had a couple of major issues and is always being looked at closely for damage. It is a fantastic plane to fly but in my opinion best suited to a private owner flying heaps and looking after it

 

From what I have observed with Microlights the Jabiru would have to be one of the best trainers around, (learn to fly a Jab , everything else will be a breeze!!).

 

:thumb_up::thumb_up::thumb_up:

 

 

[Thx1137]

I had my second flight today. It was light-years better. Everything was really good until I got about 3 feet off the ground I would tend to balloon it or stop pointing straight down the runway. The landings were a bit firm, no bounce though. The last landing was actually passable although the rollout was rather ordinary. Rudder use was a lot better though on upwind my right leg would still get a little lazy.

 

It was good to feel less like a fish out of water :-)

 

Next week I expect to be able to do do all my landings pretty well so after that, that leaves whatever else is left. Some glide approaches, cross-winds, short-fields and stalls maybe? I dunno what is usually in the curriculum when learning a new aircraft!

 

Steven.

 

 

[Relfy]

Steve, short field in the jab is great fun. I loved putting the ship on the exact spot my instructor wanted me to (following a few attempts mind you!). Just plane good fun! (pun intended). :thumb_up:

 

Just get right in there and practice everything from your training syllabus, it's suprising how it all comes back, albeit rusty at first, but there in the end.

 

 

[Thx1137]

For anyone else who decides to do something like this, get J160 hours after learning on a SportStar or similar.

 

My third hour was not too bad. I did some more standard circuits, a full flap landing and a glide approach which were all ok.

 

The last three circuits of the day were solo, it sure beats the complete bamboozlement I felt during the first hour!

 

So, a little perseverance goes a long way because it would have been easy to say "forget it" after that first hour!

 

 

[Dieselten]

The J160C is a no-frills, tough, honest, uncompromising little aircraft that will teach you the real meaning of "stick and rudder" flying. It can be flown with minimal reference to the panel, it has decent range, a cockpit that doesn't roast you alive in summer (unlike the European offerings), efficient fresh-air vents and terrific product support with advice and spares at the end of the phone instead of in another hemisphere. Above all, compared to imported aircraft of similar capabilities, it is immensely affordable. Jabirus have been built in large numbers and significant numbers have migrated to the Northern Hemisphere as well as other southern continents. It's hard to argue with excess!

 

It has little sohistication, nor does it require it. As a trainer it is forgiving but requires the student to be attentive. It dislikes but tends to forgive sloppy handling, and it doesn' bite hard like the Traumahawk, for example.

 

For the recreational pilot who aspires to aircraft ownership, the 160C or kit-built 160 provides all the essentials with the added benefits of minimal worries about corroding airframes or huge engine-maintenance bills. Consumables (filters, spark-plugs, sump-washers etc) are mostly automotive and commonly available, although they do prefer a diet of Avgas and aircraft-grade ashless, non-dispersant oil. Other minor spares (door-seals, door-locks etc) can be sourced at Bunnings Aerospace. My only beef about the J160C is the inordinate complexity of the wing-fuselage fuel-bulkhead fittings. Eleven separate pieces of metal glued and swaged into one fitting to bring three fuel-tubes down, turn them through 90 degrees, bring them inside the cabin and turn then down trhough 90 degrees again! It will take you about six hours to replace the first one you have to change, and about two hours to replace any subsequent ones because you will now all the tricks.

 

No aircraft is without faults, but those who have a lot of hours in the 160 will tell you the few faults are easy to live with, and the good points really make you look forward to every flight because flying a J160 is fun!

 

The J160 - already well on the road to becoming a classic aircraft, and with every chance there will still be many examples flying long after their aluminium-built bretheren have gone to the boneyards.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It all seems like pretty normal familiarisation stuff when going from one type to another ... except for the above Item 5(a).I've never experienced any Jabiru "plumeting" when the power comes off. There is something wrong there, as many new pilots winge about them "floating" too much on landing, only one of the responses mentions them as being "slippery".

I did in the early days, pulled too much throttle off (being used to the cushioning effect of low wing) and it dropped like a rock, corrected by finer use of throttle.

 

You'll quickly adapt THX, and the human factors will quickly come into line.

 

I found the 170 the big shock - smoother than the 160 on a calm day, but let a little breeze with a few gusts come up and you're in a wrestling match.

 

 

[Relfy]

I'll agree with you there Turbo, when the gusts come up the 170 will keep you on your toes! When I got checked out in the 230 I was amazed at how nicely it flew and how easy it was to land.

 

 

[biggles]

Dieselten

 

Well expressed and accurate comments .

 

Bob ( J160 owner/builder )