Licenced GA pilots down by a third.

[dazza 38]

Hi all, just for general interest, i was reading the november issue of australian aviation.Private fixed wing licence holders as at 30 june 2004, was 15,498.As of the 30 june 2009. It is down to 10,949. Nearly a third in five years.I guess alot have converted to RAA. Any thoughts?

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

My belief is that cost has really come into it. It's to expensive to get your PPL. I've looked into it and I'd be up for at least another $5000 to get my PPL and that's after all the training and hours I've already logged.

 

Plus the cost of your CPL and ATPL's to get a job, far out you'll be up for some serious dollars!

 

So I think that's the main reason behind it.

 

 

[dazza 38]

My belief is that cost has really come into it. It's to expensive to get your PPL. I've looked into it and I'd be up for at least another $5000 to get my PPL and that's after all the training and hours I've already logged.Plus the cost of your CPL and ATPL's to get a job, far out you'll be up for some serious dollars!

 

So I think that's the main reason behind it.

I totally agree with you Brett.That is why years ago i decided to give GA away after about 80 hrs in them and just fly ultralights.It would be nice though to fly a four seater again, but i dont really have a reason to.Cheers mate

[Simonflyer]

Cost is probably part of it, but the last year hasn't been fantastic worldwide for finance, so my thought is that numbers will rise again in the next few years when things improve..

 

But why would you fly GA if all you want to do is have a bit of fun and get out on the weekend?Its cheaper all round, and is based for the rec flyer..On the other hand, some of the toys in GA are quite a lot of fun to play with whether it be for work or play!If youve got spare cash burning a hole in your pocket.

 

 

[Chird65]

I wonder where they got these figures.

 

I have a PPL I have not used in 25 years but I still have it. If they mean that Pilots have not renewed their medical that would be different. I don't think many pilots have handed their licence in and CASA can't know if a person still exists (doubt that many have died in that time).

 

The same can be said for RAA as I have flown once in two years but still renew my membership, just incase I come by some spare cash.

 

 

[quentas]

If they mean that Pilots have not renewed their medical that would be different.

I agree, All it would take is a medical and a BFR to be current again.

[shags_j]

Wondering if CASA would be happy or sad about the decrease???

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi all the article doesnt say were CASA gets their figures from, i assume it is current medicals.

 

 

[Yenn]

I have a PPL, but havn't had a medical for several years. It is cheap to fly RAAus, especially if you own your own plane, but does anyone have any ideas about costs if you build a GA plane. I know GA costs you bi annually for the medical, but GA planes don't have an annual registration fee and you don't have to be a member of RAAus to fly.

 

My interest in this is because I am considering building either a Cheetah or an RV4 and the RV4 cannot be RAAus registered.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

2002 - 2004 were bumper years for flight training as there was an influx of overseas students. PPL numbers did rise quite substantially whilst these guys studied and trained for their CPL and ATPL. On average there usually is about 10-11,000 ppl holders in australia. In the past, this figure grew at the rate of about 3% per annum taking into account new student pilots and those of the senior citizen stage of life either taking up gardening or ultralights (where a class 2 medical is not required) This has also been compounded lately with the state of our economy (but this has affected all the "boys toys")

 

 

[facthunter]

Money.

 

Money and Bul++++t. All heading in the one direction, on the increase. The only bright star in the constellation was the RAAus. and it seems to have had a kick in the guts. You have to examine the pro's and cons as time goes on and weigh whether it is worth it. ADSB would probably finish it off for me. You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere as to a cost benefit analysis and how much your addiction can take out of the family coffers, and that point is getting closer. Nev

 

 

[airangel]

I know of one RV4 registered RAA And.........a RV7a registered Raa......{true}

 

 

[skybum]

Facthunter, you would only say that about ADS-B if you have something to hide.

 

Current medicals has always been the standard. My PPL is not current so not counted at the moment. I have to admit that the cost and the economic climate have belted me out of the game and am not likely to get back in for at least a couple more years now.

 

I am sure I will be able to get back into it soon....

 

Mind you, a mindset is a hard thing to change....expense as opposed to value for money...Is flying expensive or.....rewarding?

 

 

[facthunter]

Hide?

 

No I don't think I have anything to hide, and I suppose I don't have much to prove either as I have done most of the things that you would want to do in planes.. I therefore have to evaluate the cost and benefit, of aviation to myself, because it does affect my family. There has always been an element of "change for the sake of it and avoidable confusion", in the rules). This "grates" after a while. How often do we debate the meaning of some rule or other on this forum. That is a good idea, but there should be more clarity as to what is meant exactly Getting it right should be a lot easier.

 

The ADSB is a very expensive proposition. ( I wont go into the details of its use and limitations here), The EPIRB is not quite as expensive but I have had (two) in about 5 years.

 

BFR's get more complex, the Paperwork. ERSA's AIP's MAPs. The fact that total cost recovery is a principal that is out there, so you have to pay for a service (product) that is compulsory and you have no real say in it's cost or form, or the need for it.. Eg you are supposed to buy an ERSA 4 times a year. Why can't you download the sheets you need for a flight , (like Notams) and not have to carry the whole bulky book and so on.

 

I do not deny that aviation is a rare experience and worth a serious effort, (which I have put in all my flying life) but it is supposed to be fun, or enjoyable when you are paying for it. That word "FUN" occurrs frequently in the RAAus magazine. I think there is a LOT more to it that that, and it can be far more rewarding than "fun" implies.

 

Most of us go the "ultralight/ recreational path because it is affordable for us as individuals. We all have a different "threshold' for that. Some can afford a Yak or a Mustang They are not in the RAA. Any analysis of the changes over the last 10 years on so would note a significant increase in costs, in real terms. It will stop some from commencing flying and it will cause some to stop flying. That is all I am saying. Nev

 

 

[Guest 172M]

Lisence Renewals

 

The CASA data base for PPL/CPL/ATPL (currency) is totally reliant on the issue of a current Class 1 or 2 Medical assesments. Given an ATPL/CPL requires a (1) if they are not able to pass a (1) but can pass a (2)PPL still applies, Given if you are under 40 y.o. your medical is (generally) reviewed every four years, over 40 it is every 2 years over 60 it is every year.! If a pilot had issues, i.e.high BP or other usual (old XXXXs!) issues any further medical(stress ECGs'etc) testing is done at the cost of the pilot.If you are working commercially within the industry these costs can be a Tax deduction, if not they are a straight out of pocket expense! So, maybe some one should do some numbers.... Assume the average "Weekend Warrior" is over 40, and(hopefully!) at that age there are some spare $$to enjoy life with!The total cost per two years(incl AFR)could be in excess of $2k without getting airborne in your own time...............:stirring pot:

 

 

[sain]

the RA-Aus registered RV4 and 7 owners might want to rethink that. If the RA-Aus team ever get around to doing a check on their database their going to be screwed. Neither stalls below the limit, and the RV4 is only under the weight limit if the pilot+fuel+baggage weigh less than 40kg (well.. 130kg if its in the 544kg class). The RV7 gives you 30kg for pilot+fuel+baggage in the 544kg class.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

2 grand what a joke. the 'lucky country' is girt by sea, there's no escape.

 

How did the RVs get past the starting gate?

 

 

[Guest 172M]

ozzie

 

Mtow and stall speed, It's all in the Regs!!.......................................GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Well, I've got a class 1 (and 2) medical, just did my AFR and didn't cost anywhere near $2,000...(and I punched holes in cloud as well!!) but I could imagine some guys hiring aircraft and through lack of recently burning that amount no problem,,,:rolleyes1:

 

 

[Yenn]

Was that $2000 just for the medical, or did it include all the other compulsory stuff such as ERSA and charts?

 

 

[skydog]

RV`s are REASONABLY cost efficient compared to RA!

 

RA is up up and away with a huge increase in members and planes, mostly imported factory types already built so that tells me GA is too expensive and restrictive with airports closing and over legislated. Flight safety magazine has info about this stuff.

 

Running costs for 'GA planes' can be not too bad if you get the right plane by that I mean experimental reg VH.

 

.

 

I have a RV6 and If I have read that if I fly it at 120 knots I can get ABOUT 23 litres per hour, Not bad.

 

At height and 145kts I get 29 litres per hr which considering time to get somewhere is as cheap as flying a J230 Jab at 115 kts. [ I think I have done my sums right]

 

You can buy a RV 4 or 6 second hand for about the same as J230 or other plastics or build for about $110,000. I would rather buy one built and gain fly time.

 

Insurance is similar cost, annuals can be done by yourself if you do the pilots mtce course thats looking to be approved soon under the auspices of CASA and in conjunction with SAAA.

 

So Some 'larger' planes can mix it close to RA running costs!:stirring pot:

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

skydog, you are of course right about the costs you mention but buying an RV won't solve the problem. GA aircraft can only be maintained by a LAME or by the manufacturer. So if you buy an experimental a/c you then need to have a LAME do the maintenance and your costs are back up through the roof.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I went up at Moorabbin during the week and it was like a ghost town. We were able to taxy for an immediate take off clearance, and were the only ones from downwind

 

That may not be the case all through the week, but Moorabbin movements are substantially down on the 1989 peak.

 

I would suggest the big drop is from the falloff from overseas students who came here for cheap training in fine weather, and perhaps didn't get the professional treatment needed to retain their business, as some other countries n ow seem to have pulled that market.

 

However, if we go back to the long term decline in GA, and pressure on RA Aus flyers, I'd suggest these are the key reasons:

 

Peak Oil

 

There has been no major oil discovery since 1964, anmd general opinion is that we are at or have passed the peak of oil availability and are facing a steady decline from here on in.

 

That means demand will exceed supply, and although there will be some short term drops, as in the comparison wioth last years petrol/diesel prices, the long term cost of fuel will increase above the level of the CPI.

 

For a confirmned environmentalist like me (flying, 4WD, Chainsawing, power boating, speedway) that spells trouble.

 

For that reason, I can't wait the decade or so when we will be getting Fuel Cell power (hydrogen is converted to electricity, motors are electric)

 

A confirmed hoon who l,oves the noise of a wide open exhaust and the smell of methanol, I've driven an electric truck, and although it was the size of a small four cylinder model, the push in the back under acceleration was about the same as a 5 litre V8.

 

Short of inventing something ourselves, there's not much we can do about increasing cost of fossil fuels.

 

Development of Cheap Land

 

There is a very suspicious commonality to the use of airports around Australia for factory/DFO development combined with pressures to move aviators off those airports

 

by raising costs to phibitive levels.

 

A cynic like me becomes very suspicious when he sees lowering traffic movement figures, observes less activity, but finds new regulations about maximum aircraft in the circuit at lower levels than some uncontrolled airfields.

 

We certainly can do something about this significant cost growth.

 

Administration by CASA

 

I must admit to being fascinated by the thread about the dinner with John McCormick.

 

I don't know him, I have no feelings about him one way or the other, but here we have a Minister who is supposed to be running aviation, a Department emplying several hundred people who are supposed to be efficiently administering a safe and effective industry, yet it seems everything is being allowed to flow through one individual.

 

Inevitably that leads to bottlenecks.

 

We can certainly do something about that.

 

 

[skydog]

Qwerty

 

As a builder of an RV you can maintain your own plane but very very soon as a buyer of a experimental plane you will be able to maintain it.

 

You will have to do a 2 day maintenance course which will be run by various aircraft organisations , one being SAAA, and all overseen and managed by CASA of course.

 

I am sure it does not have to be checked off by a LAME.

 

There is a limit as to what you can do of course. I am sure they will not allow you to go welding crankcases etc but it is enough to cover off a 100 hourly.

 

I should look up the thread again on the SAAA site to make sure.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[ossie]

QwertyAs a builder of an RV you can maintain your own plane but very very soon as a buyer of a experimental plane you will be able to maintain it.

 

You will have to do a 2 day maintenance course which will be run by various aircraft organisations , one being SAAA, and all overseen and managed by CASA of course.

 

I am sure it does not have to be checked off by a LAME.

 

There is a limit as to what you can do of course. I am sure they will not allow you to go welding crankcases etc but it is enough to cover off a 100 hourly.

 

I should look up the thread again on the SAAA site to make sure.

 

Cheers.

Yep, your right, no LAME signoff needed if your the builder.

 

I think this is what your looking for - http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/rules/1998casr/021/021c04.pdf