Interestin incident to share (especially for those without much experience)

[shags_j]

Hi All,

 

Went for my 10th hour of solo flights on saturday (passenger endo next fortnight, yay!!) and had an interesting event. Not sure if i'm meant to not post stuff like this but i'm sure you guys will tell me off if i'm not ;)

 

I was on my final circuit of the hour. I made my base calls and made a call for finals. Shortly after my finals call I saw a cessna line up on the runway I was about to land on. I was on a long finals so I let it go thinking the cessna would roll straight away.

 

That was my big mistake. As I started to get closer i noticed the cessna wasn't rolling. I was about to radio to ask her what was happening when someone else from another local strip made a call. Immediately after that call someone else made a call. I was almost right on top of her and had decided to go around. Just about to press the PTT button when suddenly I hear a rolling call from the cessna.

 

I jumped on the radio to tell her I was right on top of her and going around. Situation avoided, but only just.

 

My mistake: I let her line up when I was on finals. Should have said something straight away.

 

Her mistake: Pretty obvious. Though something interesting about this story. In our human factors we were shown how a whole series of little incidents lead up to pilots making big mistakes. In this case the pilot of the cessna was taking a load of parachutists (collective noun?) up. She had started the aircraft when someone had radioed her to tell her she hadn't contacted brisbane tower. She had to stop the aircraft and make the phone call.

 

Then when she came back she couldn't start the aircraft. I guess all of this meant she was rushing to get the parachutists into the air as quickly as possible and missed my calls as well as not seeing me on final.

 

An invaluable experience for me. I think I would like to speak to the pilot to find out if I did anything wrong, though I don't think that's the case would give me some peice of mind.

 

Cheers,

 

Shags

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

Good work in recognising the issue. I've had the same and ended up going around on the dead side of the field just incase this other aircraft rolled and ended up under me. He popped up off my left wing and looked at me. I could see him talking but he must have been on the wrong freq. I turned right and departed and he continued with his circuit.

 

She should've given away to you though Shags, you had right of way being on final.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

That's correct, obvoiusly before taking the runway she should have both looked up final for incoming traffic, plus, made the appropriate radio call prior to entering the runway. That would have been your chance to call 'aircraft on final for runway xx'. Even if she had already taken the runway I would have immediatly 'requested' she stop at present position' and hold, whilst you finish your landing further down the runway. It is always prudent to do what you did to maintain safety, but it was your runway, and she was in the wrong, assuming you were both on the correct frequency of course. Many landing accidents have happened this way, and you did well avoiding one in this case, by having your eyes out the window.................

 

 

[shags_j]

Thanks guys. Good to have confirmation.

 

We were on the same frequency because when I told her I was on top of her she confirmed and stayed put while I went around.

 

Oh well good learning experience for all.

 

 

[Thx1137]

That indecision when you know (think!?) your in the right is bad isn't it. We expect the other aircraft to do what it is supposed to and when we are low hour I think we tend to defer/trust the other aircraft more than we should! All of a sudden time runs out and we have to do something.

 

Good work on the go around, the only other thing I might have done differently is request their intentions or made another mid-final call, if I didn't get a response straight away then there would be more seperation. It is hard to know though unless we are actually 'there' and it is much easier in hindsight :-)

 

Steven.

 

 

[Matt]

Good post Shags, that's one of the benefits of this forum - the ability to ask for help/advice etc.

 

Couple of points to consider / think about (with the usual - my opinion only disclaimer):

 

1. from reading your post it appears you might have made your decision to go round too late if you were "almost on top of her". From what you've posted, I'd suggest you should've been going around mid-final (250-300 ft) when it would have been clear the Cessna wasn't going to roll and be clear before you touched down, this would have allowed you to climb and be at 500ft before reaching the runway and then allowing an early crosswind to ensure there was no conflict with the Cessna - it should have been able to roll the Cessna with you going round and still have adequate separation.

 

2. When going round (aerodrome procedures permitting i.e. dual runways etc.) always keep the runway in sight - fly the dead side or in a position to keep the runway and any traffic visual - the reason you've gone around is generally because of conflicting traffic, keep them in sight.

 

3. Aviate - Navigate - Communicate, the old favourite - fly the aeroplane. If the radio is too busy to communicate you're intentions (initial or revised), fly to your intentions (revised in this instance) and when you get an opportunity to transmit, update your call with current details.

 

4. Your reflection that you "let her line up when you were on finals" is an interesting one. While you legally had right of way, you can't "direct traffic", you can only advise your position and intentions and rely on the other pilot to obey the rules. If they don't, you need to alter your plans.

 

 

[Yenn]

Good decision. You cannot ever assume that another plane can hear you call that you are on final. They may be on the wrong frequency or no radio, and a Cessna will not see you, while you may not be able to keep track of the plane beneath you.

 

 

[Guest Mad Dave]

2. When going round (aerodrome procedures permitting i.e. dual runways etc.) always keep the runway in sight - fly the dead side or in a position to keep the runway and any traffic visual - the reason you've gone around is generally because of conflicting traffic, keep them in sight.

Just keep in mind if there are parachute ops, they will be on the dead side too!

Good post though. It usually turns out your initial "gut reaction" to a situatuion is pretty right, better to act on it sooner rather than later.

 

D.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

God play there Shags but lets look from the other pilots view. if you find yourself distracted like she was then a good thing to do is hold a redo your radio calls and see what you missed whilst your attention was elsewhere. She obviously failed to realise when she came back 'online' that all the other aircraft had moved along. easy to do when your brain is loaded up. human factors again.

 

Ozzie

 

 

[shags_j]

That's what someone back in the hangar pointed out to me. Shows how the human factor stuff really is relevant.

 

 

[shags_j]

Good post Shags, that's one of the benefits of this forum - the ability to ask for help/advice etc.Couple of points to consider / think about (with the usual - my opinion only disclaimer):

 

1. from reading your post it appears you might have made your decision to go round too late if you were "almost on top of her". From what you've posted, I'd suggest you should've been going around mid-final (250-300 ft) when it would have been clear the Cessna wasn't going to roll and be clear before you touched down, this would have allowed you to climb and be at 500ft before reaching the runway and then allowing an early crosswind to ensure there was no conflict with the Cessna - it should have been able to roll the Cessna with you going round and still have adequate separation.

 

2. When going round (aerodrome procedures permitting i.e. dual runways etc.) always keep the runway in sight - fly the dead side or in a position to keep the runway and any traffic visual - the reason you've gone around is generally because of conflicting traffic, keep them in sight.

 

3. Aviate - Navigate - Communicate, the old favourite - fly the aeroplane. If the radio is too busy to communicate you're intentions (initial or revised), fly to your intentions (revised in this instance) and when you get an opportunity to transmit, update your call with current details.

 

4. Your reflection that you "let her line up when you were on finals" is an interesting one. While you legally had right of way, you can't "direct traffic", you can only advise your position and intentions and rely on the other pilot to obey the rules. If they don't, you need to alter your plans.

Good call on all of the above. By let her in point 4 I meant without reminding her that I was on final. And you are dead right on decision 1. My indecisiveness was evident.

 

Damn good learning experience.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

This is yet another example of why I get Expletive Omitted with Expletive Omitted pilots who line up and then just sit on the threshold. I say there is no reason to even stop on the threshold let alone sit there for minutes while some poor bugger is trying to land.

 

You did well Shags.

 

I award the Meat Bomb pilot F'wit of the week. Who is next. Does anyone else want to line up and wait??

 

Cheers Qwerty

 

 

[Guest drizzt1978]

For what it is worth, as soon as she lined up, I would transmit "blahblah traffic, aircraft that just lined up on ## im on final did you have me sighted" (something like that) Wait for her reply then do, what ever you think is best, One thing an instructor said to me is never be scared to use the radio, even in the heat of the moment if you get a call sign wrong or something at least there is communication.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

From my GA flying days in the states, you stopped at the taxiway hold line and got ready to fly. You did not take the runway unless you were ready to go, absolutly. If it was a towered airport, you could be asked at the hold point if your ready, and occasionally if it was busy, you could be asked to perform an 'immediate departure', with traffic coming down on a half-mile final. That ment, get out there and go, now !!. You did have the option of not accepting of course. There was no sitting on the runway performing checks....it was considered real bad form and unsafe, as it should be.................................

 

 

[dazza 38]

I have only had a couple, both at caloundra in the early nineties. The first one was me doing touch and goes,whilst i was on climb out, just after lift off, their was a chopper 'out side the cable markers, doing hovering practise. (it happens there or use to ), it is OK along as they stay well a way from the runway boundaries IE- gable markers.Anyway he decided to cross the cable markers in front of me, and on the the active runway, and fill the little jabby winscreen full of chopper, i reckon he was only 50 feet in front on me, when he crosses my path. I took evasive action to the dead side of the runway. The other one was, when i was on down wind and i got a radio call from a twin, which i thought was the twin on base, in front of me. It wasnt it was from a twin behind me, which i didnt know was their. Anyway he over took me whilst i was turning base, and passed me, and landed in front of me. The second one i contributed to a little bit, because a CFI in the one behind me, which i know, asked if he could overtake me, i was a student at the time, it all happened so fast. I thought he was in the twin in front of me. My mistake was being new to the game, i said yes, before getting clarification , i was about to say to him can you please explain how you are going to pass me when you are in front of me? By that time he was around me and landing in front of me. ALot of precedures were broken that day i think. It sounds alot more dangerous the second one than it actualy was ,we had good spacing. He had sight of me the whole time.IT was a break down of communication (he said sorry, as he didnt realize that there was a twin in front of me and he could see the confusion that was created. )The first one scare the $;;t out of me, i realy thought i was going to wear a chopper that day. Cheers guys

 

 

[Tomo]

I think I've shared this on here before, but I've had a very similar thing happen to me to Shag's.

 

It was on a training flight with the instructor on board and we'd being doing circuits for quite a while, when a visiting aircraft flew in, (with a radio call sign like he was in England or something, but that's another story!).

 

Anyway about 10 min later he was off again, and we where still bashing circuits the same as before. So nothing knew... Anyway this aircraft obviously started up taxiied to the runway I was using, we could see it all (we're in the Drifter here!!) so I made my turning finals call to let him know I'm there. All is good, he stopped at the runway line, and we thought he was holding for us, (we're on short finals now so fairly easy to see - I thought!?)

 

Just as we where almost at the threshold this aircraft makes an entering and lining up call and just boldly & proudly drives straight in front of me...................! I jump on the radio, and hit the throttle and he screeched to a holt, while I landed a bit further down the track.

 

He then got on the radio an was trying to say I didn't radio etc etc... when I said I did radio he didn't agree :black_eye: Problem was, another aircraft in the area heard me....?!

 

I was all worried then that I'd done something wrong, but I was assured by my instructor and a whole heap of glider pilots that I did the right thing... made for a bit of talk anyway - was a gliding comp day!!

 

It was a great learning curve for me, both in that you never trust your radio calls... you might make them, but they mightn't hear them...! and another thing I learnt from the other aircraft is LOOKING on finals/downwind before entering a runway isn't a five second glance, you do actually have to look ;)

 

Hope I haven't bored you all to sleep now!

 

 

[mAgNeToDrOp]

On my first area solo, I turned downwind 09 after making the call and immediately got a call from another J230 lining up rolling 27, got the nerves working a bit as it was first area solo but I made sure I kept him visual and extended downwind till he departed, also confimed intentions with radio calls, he climbed out like a homesick angel and I hardly had to extend by much - non event in the end but radio calls and visual makes life less stressful - important lesson :) Wind wasn't really an issue that day, slight crosswind on 09-27 so could've chosen either runway and no other aircraft around

 

 

[shags_j]

It was a great learning curve for me, both in that you never trust your radio calls... you might make them, but they mightn't hear them...! and another thing I learnt from the other aircraft is LOOKING on finals/downwind before entering a runway isn't a five second glance, you do actually have to look ;)

Hope I haven't bored you all to sleep now!

Not boring Tomo, good advice. Thanks.

 

 

[Ultralights]

also another factor to consider, is Its Illegal for more than 1 aircraft at a time to be on an active runway, unless conducting a formation take off/landing with prior approval.

 

so if she has taxied over the holding point line, and stopped, you Cannot land on the same runway.

 

there was a situation at Bankstown a few months ago, a Cessna in front of us was given approval to line up by the tower. a short time later, a cherokee, landed in front of the Cessna already lined up.

 

the fallout was the tower controller got reprimanded for "forgetting" about the aircraft he told to line up, and the pilot of the cherokee for landing on a "blocked" runway. the only way the tower knew about it ws when the cessna pilot asked the tower why the aircraft just landed in front of him. and me being a witness had to add a statement to the ATSB for their report.

 

 

[Thx1137]

Well, if they are on my runway I am not going to trust them to not take off while I am landing in front of them so legal or not I wouldn't do it!

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

what was that saying....

 

when a pilot stuffs up he dies, when a controller stuffs up, pilot still dies.

 

 

[shags_j]

no way i would land in front of someone on the runway.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Knowing how much radio chatter and pilots talking over one another on 118.8mhz..(Caloundra, Caboolture and Redcliffe).it could quite have been the case where the pilot of the meatbomber simply didn't hear (or see) you.. Doesn't excuse her display of bad airmanship though!! A big reminder to keep a good lookout and plan well ahead..a missed approach early gives you an opportunity to plan your crosswind to better suit traffic conditions. Considering your experience Shags, well done:big_grin:

 

 

[Paul Turner]

Good post Shags, that's one of the benefits of this forum - the ability to ask for help/advice etc.Couple of points to consider / think about (with the usual - my opinion only disclaimer):

 

1. from reading your post it appears you might have made your decision to go round too late if you were "almost on top of her". From what you've posted, I'd suggest you should've been going around mid-final (250-300 ft) when it would have been clear the Cessna wasn't going to roll and be clear before you touched down, this would have allowed you to climb and be at 500ft before reaching the runway and then allowing an early crosswind to ensure there was no conflict with the Cessna - it should have been able to roll the Cessna with you going round and still have adequate separation.

 

2. When going round (aerodrome procedures permitting i.e. dual runways etc.) always keep the runway in sight - fly the dead side or in a position to keep the runway and any traffic visual - the reason you've gone around is generally because of conflicting traffic, keep them in sight.

 

3. Aviate - Navigate - Communicate, the old favourite - fly the aeroplane. If the radio is too busy to communicate you're intentions (initial or revised), fly to your intentions (revised in this instance) and when you get an opportunity to transmit, update your call with current details.

 

4. Your reflection that you "let her line up when you were on finals" is an interesting one. While you legally had right of way, you can't "direct traffic", you can only advise your position and intentions and rely on the other pilot to obey the rules. If they don't, you need to alter your plans.

Shags,

 

Agree with Matt 100% but just add two comments:

 

- First up, chat to your Instructor and get him/her to show you the passage in the VFR Guide (or original regs) that spells our the 'Separation Minima fo Landing'. Really simple explanation of the rules and all very sensible stuff.

 

- Secondly, as Matt indicates, set yourself some 'personal minima' for your operations. By that I mean have your own personal rules that you ALWAYS obey; such as 'not lined up on Final by 400ft AGL... GO AROUND'; or 'runway not clear by 400 ft AGL... GO AROUND'. Again talk to your instructor but I think it's good for low hour pilots (like me and 90% of recreational pilots... OK maybe 80%) to have personal minimum acceptable standards that are actually higher (safer) than the law requires. Personally I give myself a bit more space, a bit more fuel and a bit less cloud cover than I 'legallaly' can get away with to make sure I get to fly another day. It may mean that you miss a couple of landings but calling the pilot that cut you off an few 'choice' names in the clubhouse later in the day is a LOT better than dropping your aircraft onto the top of him (and his passengers).

 

Great discussion for the forum by the way.

 

Cheers,

 

Paul

 

 

[Guest check-in]

Shags has learned much from this and is to be commended for opening the discussion the way he did.

 

What the meatbomber pilot could learn is that when flying at uncontrolled aerodromes, don't take to the runway until all your checks are done so that you can get out of there quickly. If the need to delay takeoff arises (crossing traffic, a minor problem etc), park it at the threshold at RIGHT ANGLES to the strip. NEVER line up and hold with your back to the approach. For obvious reasons. If the problem is more than minor, VACATE the strip until sorted. Then start all your checks again.

 

The only time I ever line up and wait with my back to the approach is when under the direction of a control tower.