Inflight Video's

[Tomo]

This chaps got the idea...:thumb_up:

 

In Flight Aircraft Video - Crosswind Technique

 

 

[mAgNeToDrOp]

makes it look easy doesn't he, nice one Tomo

 

 

[Tomo]

He says put the stick to the direction the wind is going so that the aileron that's into the wind is down. I was taught & from experience it works, that you put the stick into the wind (where its coming from) when taxiing & when landing lower the wing that is into the wind, which of course is stick into wind.

Yes, I didn't even pick that up first time I watched it...! go's to show I was paying attention!

 

I have always taxied with the stick into the wind, put the stick where the wind is basically.

 

And like DF I have also found from experience it works great, especially for directional control in the Drifter if you have a nasty sidewind/crosswind.

 

But then he does have a point because the wind in his situation is coming from the right hand rear corner, and so a down going aileron would be the go there, whereas if it was from the front right hand corner It would be a nasty thing to do... like he said there is a lot of variables to think about when flying in strong winds!

 

 

[Smokey]

But then he does have a point because the wind in his situation is coming from the right hand rear corner, and so a down going aileron would be the go there, whereas if it was from the front right hand corner It would be a nasty thing to do... like he said there is a lot of variables to think about when flying in strong winds!

Hi Thomo

 

You're quite right, Greg Davies is specifically referring to the situation where you are taxying in a tail wind although he does not explicitly state that. He was not working to a script and ad-libbed the whole thing.

 

David Venish, the videographer, has done a couple of these with Greg and each time we learn things like clarifications of points which at the time were self evident.

 

During the rest of the video you will notice he is emphasising keeping the into wind wing down.

 

Mark

 

 

[turboplanner]

Hmmm....... Re the Foxbat taking off in X-wind. The instructor indicates the exact opposite to what I was taught. He says put the stick to the direction the wind is going so that the aileron that's into the wind is down. I was taught & from experience it works, that you put the stick into the wind (where its coming from) when taxiing & when landing lower the wing that is into the wind, which of course is stick into wind.

Let's hear opinions please ladies & gentlemen

I nearly posted the same thing Destiny; The only time I have heard this suggested before was when I was flying with Eugene Reid. No other Instructor, ever.

 

Given that Eugene said it, and from the video, Greg clearly has a very good sense of wind direction, maybe we've missed something in training.

 

For the most part there will be a tail quartering wind when taxying towards the runway threshold point and on backtracking, so I can understand the thinking.

 

On the other hand the act of taxying generates a relative headwind component,so say if the tail quartering component is five knots and you are taxying at five knots the relative wind is coming directly from the upwind side. If you were taxying at 8 knots, the relative wind would be coming from the front and you would need stick into wind.

 

If anyone has done the theory on this I'd be interested in comments on why the mainstream teaching (GA and RA) is stick into wind only.

 

For those who continually rubbish the Human Factors study, you might notice that Greg competely misses the "Downwind" radio call, where inbound aircraft who can't see him may assume he's departed the circuit and let down right on his line.

 

I'm not pointing the finger at Greg here, because very obviously the overall flight was a model of precision, I just want to show that even if you are right on top of your procedures, it requires training and constant self criticism to ensure an additional distraction doesn't allow something important to slip by.

 

 

[shags_j]

Quite a few schools don't use the downwind call. I've been to a couple myself.

 

It's not cumpolsory and I admit that I don't now unless there is a lot of traffic in the circuit and I think it may be valuable.

 

Never miss my base and finals though.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Very nice and well produced instructional video, and I do like a bloke who does a real preflight check. Great stuff, with good flying...

 

Personally I do use a side slip often to adjust height on final, S turns I don't use much but they do work, and my most common used crosswind technique is wing down into crosswind, and hold nose straight down the runway with use of top rudder, straightening just before touch down, whatever works best for your flying machine and gets you down safe I suppose........................................................................:thumb_up:

 

 

[turboplanner]

Quite a few schools don't use the downwind call. I've been to a couple myself.It's not cumpolsory and I admit that I don't now unless there is a lot of traffic in the circuit and I think it may be valuable.

 

Well RA Aus seem to think it's compulsory - extract from their site.

 

5.2 Prescribed radio procedures at non-towered airfields

 

. . . .

 

“The following broadcasts are mandatory for all aircraft on a CTAF ® and for all radio-equipped aircraft on other CTAFs. However there may be requirements detailed in the ERSA entry for a particular airfield which vary from the standards detailed below. Some temporary variation in the following procedures may also be stipulated, via notam or AIP supplement, for special events; e.g. the annual Birdsville Race meeting or the RA-Aus national annual fly-in.”

 

…

 

“Broadcasts within the circuit

 

• A turning downwind report, and
   
   
  
• a turning base report, and
   
   
  
• a turning final report, and
   
   
  
• a clear of runway report after landing.”
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

VHF communications — R/T procedures

 

 

[icebob]

Hi,

 

I must say i enjoyed the video, even had my own bollard head w-a-y in the background too.

 

I was always taught with a quartering tail wind on taxi exactly as per this video and wing down into the wind.

 

Then again a carrier can be a bitch to taxi on too.

 

Hay turbo, i missed that, that will teach me for not paying attention, thanks for highlighting it.

 

Bob.

 

 

[Tomo]

Personally I do use a side slip often to adjust height on final

I love doing side slip landing in the drifter! Over the fence at 3-400ft and just drop it in!

 

 

[wags]

Correct x-wind technique.

 

I expect to receive some unfavourable comment from this post.

 

I was somewhat startled by what I saw on the x-wind video, however with more than 2000 hours of ab-initio instruction I think I can speak with some authority on this subject... so here goes. Here's something controversial for a start... a x-wind take-off or a x-wind approach and landing is no different to any other take-off, approach and landing. Let's get the fear and mystery out of this subject. It all comes down to good positive control inputs and good well practiced technique.

 

On take-off be sure to keep the wings level by starting your take-off roll with a little into wind aileron input and be prepared to add more if a gust tries to lift the wing. There is no valid reason to use extreme into wind "wing down" as you are only setting up a crossed control situation during rotate and initial climb-out. Keep your wings level with aileron and keep straight with rudder during the take-off roll - your aircraft will automatically yaw into wind after lift-off - all by itself - and the aircraft is quickly returned to a balanced flying condition. Lay-off drift during climb-out to track the runway centreline. Positive control inputs are the order of the day during the take-off. It is just the same as any other take-off except you are more alert to the possibility of a wing raising due to a x-wind gust and staying down the runway centreline... just like you always do on every take-off.

 

The correct technique on final approach is to lay-off the drift and track down the extended centreline of the runway - just as you do on every approach. This technique allows you to actually assess the amount of x-wind you are experiencing by the amount of drift you have on. At 60 kts approach speed most RAAus aircraft will be at max x-wind with 14 - 15 degrees of drift. (I assume here a x-wind limit for typical RAAus aircraft of around 14 to 15 kts). Oblique approaches make assessment of the situation extremely difficult with everything changing at the last second, so stick to that extended centreline like there's no tomorrow.

 

Your approach path is then controlled just as it is for any other approach - nothing has changed. Keep those aggressive "S" turns near the ground for getting into a paddock after the engine fails; they have no place in normal operation of an aircraft. If you want to practice them do it with some altitude under the aircraft.

 

Back to the approach - established drift is maintained into the flare and just before touchdown the aircraft is aligned with the runway with rudder while simultaneously applying aileron to keep the wings level. Sometimes it requires quite a boot full of rudder (perhaps up to full rudder in max x-wind conditions) with a considerable amount of aileron to keep the wings level because of the secondary effect of controls. Go try it by setting the aircraft up in an approach configuration at 3000 ft AGL and see just how much aileron you need to keep the wings level when you apply a good boot-full of rudder. Yaw the aircraft left and right while applying aileron to keep the wings level with the horizon. If nothing else it will help remind you of the ineffectiveness and limits of your flying controls at low airspeed.

 

Wings are maintained level (or even very slightly lowered into wind) with aileron throughout the touchdown and roll-out using rudder to keep the aircraft aligned with the runway centreline. Running along on one wheel looks cool but doesn't achieve anything more than positive control does. A positive landing under full control will ensure you will not loose control of the aircraft. The intention should be to get the aircraft on the ground and away from the effects of the x-wind... not floating down the strip hoping a gust doesn't pick up the into wind wing and give you more troubles than Speed Gordon can control while you have both a high nose attitude and low airspeed. That is a recipe for disaster!

 

It is my personal opinion that to teach approaches with crossed controls all the way down final is asking for, and probably setting up for trouble! Side slipping should be reserved for getting rid of extra height, and then only used as a last resort if the runway you are approaching is limiting and you have exhausted all other methods of washing off excess height.

 

I noticed on his before take-off check he states "flaps zero, not required"... surely the correct response is "flaps zero, set for take-off". If flaps are "not required" they would have been removed from the aircraft by the manufacturer! There are other points in the video that one can bring into question as well, but I am sure the foregoing comments should get a good response from some of our more educated forum members!

 

To post a video demonstrating what are very questionable techniques for approaches in x-wind conditions (or any approach for that matter) is leaving oneself open to criticism.

 

 

[dazza 38]

nice looking airfield

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Wags, I have read your post and note you'r comments. I did not have too many problems with the gent at the oaks, and I thought generally he flew his aircraft well. Of course in crosswind operations each aircraft may require individually adjusted versions of all the above.

 

For instance the Foxbat has a relativly high lift wing, quite different to what you have on the CT, which is more optimized for cruising speed. And I do note also that the CT has had it's share of landing dramas in winds ?. The Foxbat is more like the Savannah, both with high-lift wings and (a) although I would also have used 1/2 flap for takeoff and landing in wind (but not full flap) simply because it gets you airborne quicker and away from the ground, he chooses not to on the day, and I don't see any problem with that.

 

As I noted in a prev post I don't use S turns to loose height either, however I have in the past and it does work, especially if some body if front in a Storch, is back to 22 kts, and taking his sweet time down short final. (Happened to me once at Old Station) Obviosly there is a point where you are going to go around ,rather than fall out of the sky waiting.

 

If I was an instructor, yes I probabily would demonstrate the S turn method of loosing a bit of height to a student. I wouldn't suggest it's common usage, but don't see any reason why it shouldn't be in one's bag of tricks for use when required.

 

I don't like your reference to side slipping, although it is in line with what a lot (too many) of pilots, often held beliefs are.

 

The side slip is a totally stable and safe manouver which can be extremly usefull when needed. I spent years joyfully watching Pat McGrath teach his many students the gentle (and not so gentle) art of sideslipping, in all sorts of winds. You certainly didn't get a license from him, if you couldn't. It is a great manouver when you really need to loose a little bit of altitude, or a lot of altitude fast, and it should be practised often.

 

The other method you describe appears to be in line with what I previously described, as my preferred crosswind technique. That is, into-wind wing down as required (will differ greatly with aircraft types) and keeping nose tracking straight along runway heading by using 'top' rudder as required. I don't ever recall having to use 'full' rudder imput to achieve this in any aircraft. This works very well in my Lightwing crosswind, plus many other aircraft I have flown, and is enjoyable to use. Cheers.............

 

 

[turboplanner]

Wags, I was originally taught pretty much your technique, and also to get the aircraft to the correct altitude and turn point for final, which means there is no need for S turns or side slips.

 

On crosswinds in the Cherokee I never had any problems Yawing on the way down, straightening with rudder at the last minute, and landing with the into wind wing slightly down.

 

However the Cherokee had weight and momentum.

 

The J170 wing will find the slightest puff of breeze to throw you around and the very short fuselage means you run out of rudder authority very quickly.

 

So I've been taught to come down on crossed controls with part power on, and while I don't find it as comfortable, after several hours of practice I was a lot more consistent in cross winds.

 

He made me wonder about the flaps too.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Tomo, I'm happy to hear that. (a) You must have had a good instructor. (b) You will have the skills required to shoehorn yourself into that real tight paddock if you ever have to, after an engine failure...................................................................................

 

 

[wags]

My comments.

 

Maj - I wasn't commenting on whether or not the gentleman flew his aircraft well. I was commenting on how an instructor (a CFI at that) has published a video purporting to show correct x-wind technique when the video is batantly flawed and fails to demonstrate correct technique. Many new or inexperienced flyers will see what he demonstrates and go out and try to copy the techniques he displays in the video - and it is purely and simply wrong! He is demonstrating a path for disaster with less experienced aviators and as an instructor he should know better.

 

I believe students should be shown all flight maneuvers and have the opportunity to practice them, among those sequences should be side slipping. However to say it can be used as a method of countering x-wind on approach is setting the scene for a disaster. Try flying a Gazelle, Auster or Tiger Moth without knowing what side slipping is all about. BUT do not teach it as a method of coping with x-winds.

 

I've flown most types from Thrusters to B747-400's and the one thing I have learnt in my years of aviating is that having the basic correct techniques will save your bacon when the chips are down. You are indeed correct when you say that different types need different techniques, but unless the correct basic techniques are taught and rehearsed it doesn't matter what you are in as you have no good basis from where to start adapting to the particular aircraft type.

 

TurboPlanner - nothing different between a CTLS and a Jabiru... both have short moment arms and smallish rudders. As I have said above, good and correct technique applies to all aircraft types and with a good basic technique you can jump from type to type with confidence and safety.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Im with Major, i side slip, if needed to lose height, (although some a/c slip better than others) . I used to yaw into the wind, and on flair, kick it straight and lower wing into the wind, on flairing etc. In the tecnams, i set up, on final wing low into the wind, crossed controled, to maintain centre line, my CFI at the school where i hire, the a/c, taught, me the later. It works for me. I think with anything in life, their is no right or wrong way, their is just different ways. Jim Davis - teaches the crossed control procedure in his book for cross wind landings. thats my opinion how about everyone else.

 

 

[Ultralights]

Both crosswind techniques are just as valid as each other, only i teach the wind down technique, as the last thing you need on a seald runway is sideways drift of any sort on touchdown. same applies with take off, with no wing down to counteract drift, when the nose is lifted off the runway, and the main gear gets light, it can drift before it yaws into wind, resulting in a nice high pitch squeal and a hop or 2 from the gear before they break the surface.

 

as for S turns.... well, see how far the gets you with 3 parallel runways!!

 

sideslip is preferred method to loose height, if your still to high, suck up you pride and GO AROUND!

 

 

[icebob]

Hi,

 

I have been through the video a number of times and re-read all the responses here, just a note i would like to make and that is this is his first attempt at an instructional video so give him the credits for that, sure there are some issues but please let's not shoot the messenger, no script, poor face to camera technique and poor diction and voice control,voice overs volume and clarity, sun and picture distortions. Hay a beginner lets give him some constructive assistance, we all would a student pilot I am sure. It is the total package not just his instruction, as an exercise just go through the video not looking at the technical flying issues but all the other things and you will see all of the crew are new at this.

 

Bob.

 

Oh, our son did a 4 year Film and TV collage course and i was his "study buddy" interesting what you pick up, I really think i should have the certificate too, ha,ha.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi,I have been through the video a number of times and re-read all the responses here, just a note i would like to make and that is this is his first attempt at an instructional video so give him the credits for that, sure there are some issues but please let's not shoot the messenger, no script, poor face to camera technique and poor diction and voice control,voice overs volume and clarity, sun and picture distortions. Hay a beginner lets give him some constructive assistance, we all would a student pilot I am sure. It is the total package not just his instruction, as an exercise just go through the video not looking at the technical flying issues but all the other things and you will see all of the crew are new at this.

Bob.

 

Oh, our son did a 4 year Film and TV collage course and i was his "study buddy" interesting what you pick up, I really think i should have the certificate too, ha,ha.

Fantastic video icebob, i enjoyed it.

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Dazza,

 

yes i did enjoy the video but would still be better with a script and some coaching. He did very well, for the first time.

 

Bob.

 

 

[Tomo]

Tomo, I'm happy to hear that. (a) You must have had a good instructor. (b) You will have the skills required to shoehorn yourself into that real tight paddock if you ever have to, after an engine failure...................................................................................

Thanks Maj, yes I was shown a lot of different things, and am very grateful for it.

 

The real reason I posted the video link was about the videoing, rather than the performance of the flying. But seeing as we are heading that way, keep it up, but just be careful not to bag the pilot... remember it only takes a little bit of criticism to cause a lot of pain for someone, also makes one a "proving person" resulting in over performing oneself and consequential accidents evolve, etc.. Constructive criticism I'm sure he would appreciate, so lets be like that hey?!

 

Ok, so who makes the flying performing rules...?

 

If the pilot is a safe pilot, lands it without breaking anything or anyone, performing with-in his performance boundaries, and doesn't cause conflicting problems with other aircraft, (ie, the situation of three parallel runways, obviously you wouldn't "S" turn your final approach....)

 

I honestly don't really care how he operates the aircraft, if it is done safely with others in mind, and to suit the particular area, who cares how he does it?! Honestly... don't you hate it when others are backseat drivers in a car...!?

 

Constructive criticism, I love it! that is how one learns, but lets not judge without knowing the full facts.

 

And we wonder why we have so many rules and reg's, endorsements etc...

 

Sorry I'll step down now....

 

Ps. I'm not saying you aren't giving constructive criticism, just keep it in mind.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Well said Tomo, Hey I only watched it once, and I thought it was pretty good. Show me two instructors who instruct the same way anyway!!. Not possible unless we clone them.

 

I think the video format wise, was excellent, you saw what the pilot was doing /looking at, you saw what he was doing with the stick, and you saw the view out the front window. Plus he had video from the ground !..that all takes a bit of setting up.

 

Whats not to like ????.....I can only look foward to his second one...........................

 

 

[Tomo]

I think the format video wise, was excellent, you saw what the pilot was doing /looking at, you saw what he was doing with the stick, and you saw the view out the front window. Plus he had video from the ground !..that all takes a bit of setting up.

Very well done if you ask me! :thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest becky1]

Hi Everyone

 

I guess what the issue here is a video has been placed on this forum for all to watch,both experienced and inexperienced pilots,the inexperienced all eager to learn and taking in every facit of its content.

 

The fact that it has been put on, I must agree with Wags as to its format in certain areas,for the experienced hopefully they know their limitations and have knowledge of how an aircraft will perform under certain conditions,but for those who don't, the pilot and the producer of the video need to make sure what they are demonstrating is not going to be misinterpreted.

 

If this is the first time they have made an instructional video thats fine,but should they be putting on their first attempts on a forum such as this and for people to think gee! I didnt know that,I will start doing S turns or side slipping every time I am to high on final rather than going around like I was originally taught.

 

Maybe I missed something in the considerable amount of time I have been flying,never before have I seen or had demonstrated by an instructor except when practising forced landings or engine failures in the circuit the use of S turns on final approach.We have a circuit format to comply with which is not only to the benefit of ourselves but other aircraft following us into land.

 

Besides the fact that the aeroplane behind us probably doesn't know what the heck you are doing, or even if you are alone in the circuit you need to be very certain of your ability and be well ahead of the aeroplane if you are gong to be turning at low altitude or sideslipping as demonstrated in this video at the lower end of the speed range. Does the instructor and the producer of this video know for sure every one that has watched this video has the capability of doing that. The message should be "go around",unless you are in an aircraft that is capable of slipping with or without flap and only down to a safe designated altitude and you have been taught to do it by your instructor which I didnt hear mentioned any where in the presentation.

 

As to cross wind technique,sure do the method that you have been taught by your instructor and what you feel most comfortable doing,but I very much agree with Wags as to a normal centreline approach as for any landing,if you watch the video and particulary the balance ball to see this aeroplane flying so low to the ground on the strip run as they put it and also after take off being so much out of balance is pretty scary,however at least this time we know there is an experienced and capable pilot at the controls who can handle it, but is that always going to be the case.

 

Anyway thats my opinion for what its worth,unless you are a 100% sure of your content,and have experience in teaching flying on an instructional video,and not knowing the ability of the pilots and their personalities you are showing this too [as instructors soon find out with a students sitting beside them], I do not believe these sort of venues should be used to show your first attempts.

 

Jennifer