Inflight Video's

[Tomo]

I noticed on his before take-off check he states "flaps zero, not required"... surely the correct response is "flaps zero, set for take-off". If flaps are "not required" they would have been removed from the aircraft by the manufacturer!

Yes and No....

 

He had a cross wind for a start, not to mention the turbulence, so in his situation, I would take off without flap also. Gives you a slightly faster take off speed, enhancing airflow over the controls for better controlling in the turbulence etc... and having a bit of a head wind component he isn't likely to run out of runway, so doesn't require the extra lift.

 

So his comment of "flaps zero, not required" is the only way to put it really...? Because flaps set for normal take off conditions usually use one stage of flap. And they were not required!

 

Don't you think?

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi all, I at times takeoff, without flap, the reason is, what happens if you fly some where else and the flap motor goes U/S( if electric). I actually do it fairly regulary. Its not problem at boonah, long strip. I have asked the students there, and most of them have never done it. Anyway back to side slipping, i do it regulary, not because i have to, but it is a aquired skill, that has to be practised. It IMO it is one of those skills, that when needed, could save your life, and it has to be practised at low level once competent .But first practised at a higher altitude. I know that at low level, it could end in tears, if not done correctly. That is why it should be practised at hight level an then graduallly at a lower altitude. I would never do S turns to lose height in a circuit, i would only use it if was at 2ooo feet or what ever, where i had plenty of time to set myself up for a forced landing if i had a engine failure. i would rather be to high and slide/forward slip into a field. Than try an stretch the glide, we all know what happens then. ( if you dont know what happens , your airspeed will lower to below stall speed, the aeroplane will not fly anymore regardless how hard you pull back on the stick/yoke and you will nose in and die if high enough)That is why i am a advocate of side slipping IF the a/c handles it OK and it is effective on that particular a/c.Cheers Daryl

 

 

[wags]

No problems with video.

 

TOMO... if flaps are fitted to the aircraft they will be selected to the setting the PIC feels is appropriate for the conditions at the time.... BUT THEY ARE REQUIRED. If you make any selection for take-off the correct response is "Flaps XXº, Set for take-off". It is also a reminder to the PIC that he changing the normal flap setting to what he/she regularly uses and therefore it should jog the memory that there will perhaps be a slightly different requirement relative to flap procedure after take-off - eg flap retraction or not.

 

I don't have a problem with the video; in fact it is well presented and I trust in time the producer will make many more to aid in training... it is a brilliant resource and much needed as a training tool.

 

What I do have is a problem when someone who is a CFI and whose word is taken as "gospel" by less experienced aviators, making a video like this and posting it in a public arena for all to see and the content could give a less experienced pilot what I consider is absolutely dud info. When have you ever been taught to fly down final approach in a totally unbalanced flight condition? When do you normally fly around close to the ground in an unbalanced condition... not very often I hope?

 

Sure it can be done and the results are probably fine when the PIC has the ability to cope with abnormal situations. I'd like to know how you assess the amount of x-wind in a side slipping approach all the way down final. The side slipping technique is as a way to loose height... it was presented in this video as away to make a x-wind approach and it is incorrect technique. After 20,000 hrs - 75% of these hours as a training pilot, I think I know just a little about what I am talking about!

 

 

[turboplanner]

TOMO... if flaps are fitted to the aircraft they will be selected to the setting the PIC feels is appropriate for the conditions at the time.... BUT THEY ARE REQUIRED. If you make any selection for take-off the correct response is "Flaps XXº, Set for take-off". It is also a reminder to the PIC that he changing the normal flap setting to what he/she regularly uses and therefore it should jog the memory that there will perhaps be a slightly different requirement relative to flap procedure after take-off - eg flap retraction or not.I don't have a problem with the video; in fact it is well presented and I trust in time the producer will make many more to aid in training... it is a brilliant resource and much needed as a training tool.

 

What I do have is a problem when someone who is a CFI and whose word is taken as "gospel" by less experienced aviators, making a video like this and posting it in a public arena for all to see and the content could give a less experienced pilot what I consider is absolutely dud info. When have you ever been taught to fly down final approach in a totally unbalanced flight condition? When do you normally fly around close to the ground in an unbalanced condition... not very often I hope?

 

Sure it can be done and the results are probably fine when the PIC has the ability to cope with abnormal situations. I'd like to know how you assess the amount of x-wind in a side slipping approach all the way down final. The side slipping technique is as a way to loose height... it was presented in this video as away to make a x-wind approach and it is incorrect technique. After 20,000 hrs - 75% of these hours as a training pilot, I think I know just a little about what I am talking about!

I think I mentioned I'd been "retrained" to come all the way down final in sideslip configuration, and I've never been happy with it, but you can judge the crosswind accurately and fly the centre.

 

I suspect the reason for it is that the J170 in particular responds to every little burst of wind, and kicking straight with rudder at the last minute, which works so well with heavier GA aircraft could provide just enough delay for the Jab to be pushed to the side of the runway.

 

In that 20,000 hours, have you had many in a J170 at a temperature of between 15 and 25 (where the 170 wing has huge lift) in crosswind conditions?

 

If you haven't, that could explain your position on this. If you have, and still maintain yawing is the way to go, then we should have a more detailed discussion on this thread, given the big number of landing incidents featuring in the RAA magazine.

 

 

[wags]

Technique has been discussed sufficiently.

 

The x-wind technique that works for any aircraft type has been adequately discussed in this thread Turboplanner. It takes practice and proper technique to accomplish satisfactorily, but once you can accomplish the technique it will give you the ability to cope with x-winds in a comfortable and precise manner - and your approach has been flown exactly as it normally would during any approach. You will not be all cross controlled and feeling awkward, something you admit yourself.

 

If you find yourself going sideways after you align with the runway it is because you have allowed the aircraft to do so by aligning too soon before your intended touch down. One reason landings in a x-wind should be positive and fully controlled is so the PIC chooses when the aircraft lands and does not put the aircraft and himself/herself into a dangerous situation. Excess and exaggerated hold off at a low and degrading airspeed, with a high nose attitude as proposed in the video = disaster waiting to happen.

 

I didn't advocate not lowering the upwind wing a touch... simply don't fly all the way down final in an unbalanced condition. Maybe you fly around all the time in an unbalanced condition? I think not, or rather I hope not. Hopefully RAAus instructors as a whole teach correct techniques and ensure their students can cope with x-winds up to max for the aircraft type they fly.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I take it you haven't had the J170 experience I referred to.

 

 

[bluey the fly]

Regarding slide slipping & S turns and no flap takeoffs,i was shown to use no flap takeoff as normal in the tecnam golf but in the sierra use 15% flap this i think because of the differance in airfoil.and on touch & go wheels down, flaps up, throttle up and up we go..... ? If i am lined up on final with a strong xwind on my right ..right wing down, left rudder to keep it straight wouldn't this x controll be a form of sideslip? And during my training manovering at low speeds (ie) s turns..I think this is all good training as you really get a handle on what the plane is able to do.....:thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Wags, I am very dissapointed in you referring to a sideslip as an 'unbalanced condition', It only tells me that probabily a good many of those 20,0000 hours you claim must have been spent sitting up front in a 74, sipping coffee, and not actually flying. Anyone who knows how to side slip, would surely know that it is as stable a manouver as any you could do. When approaching on final in a slip, you can often pretty much forget any crosswind, until you un-sideslip and flare for landing. You can as I previosly said, adjust your airspeed in a slip, so you arrive over the fence with whatever airspeed you need. You can also for want of a better word 'aim' the aircraft at a specific point, which is why it is unmatched by no other manouver, for getting into that real tight paddock, or other selected area. This is why it can be such a valuable manouver. As you may know (or may not) you have to hold the aircraft in a sideslip, and instantly you don't hold it, you come straight out. I have side slipped many aircraft with, and without flaps, including the SS4 Storch which sideslips beautifully right down final with FULL flaps, without any danger, and it has a good 40 deg of full flap.

 

I have unfortunatly noticed that many pilots who are fundimentaly opposed to the sideslip manouver have, like you, a GA back ground. It is obvious it wasn't in the GA training sylibus back then.

 

If your worried about the safety of it, come on up, I'll gladly throw you in the Lightwing and we'll do a few................................................................................................

 

 

[facthunter]

Stable & balanced.

 

Nit-picking a bit, but just to clarify;- A sideslip may be a stable condition in that it can be maintained for ever. The control forces needed are considerable in some aircraft. Ie rudder off centre and aileron to lower wing. Pitch is normal in feel and response. The aircraft has to be held in to the sideslip, to stay there. Generally the rudder is considered to be a "balance" control , though it has further effects ,as we all know. The aircraft (with respect to rudder) is said to be "in balance" When the ball is in the centre. Ie there is no slip/skid. I know this is basic but maybe has to be said. Nev

 

 

[wags]

You either take advice and possibly learn ... or?

 

I personally don't care whether or not you are prepared to take advice and are maybe willing to learn. In aviation it's a bad day when you don't learn something - and there are plenty to read about who think they know it all!

 

Please do not promote bad or incorrect technique as being the way to go... especially where it will most likely influence relatively inexperienced aviators.

 

Most likely the Auster and the Tiger Moth were not available for you to fly when you started Maj?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

'Bad or incorrect technique'.?..Ummmm....sad. It is not I who am not willing to learn...I already learnt the manouver, many years ago. Even when I trained for my PPL in California, I can remember my Instructor teaching Slips to me, during power-off training. It is you my friend who has not opened his mind to this usefull manouver.

 

No I do not have any Tiger or Auster time myself, but I do have time as passenger in both, most recently a full aerobatic ride with my friend Pete, at Shute Harbor late one afternoon in the Tiger. I recall he expertly ended the flight with a full-on sideslip over the fence to landing, which apparently is the way to keep sight of the runway in a Tiger.

 

I do have 275 hrs in a biplane of my own design, which is one of the few designs in the world with 10 Deg of sweep on BOTH wings. The notable others being the Tiger, Stampe and a couple of others. Even the Pitts has only got large sweep on the top wing only.

 

I do recall my little bipe slipping nicely when required, and I did have to put her into a couple of paddocks back then.

 

I also recall an instance while training in the C152 with my instructor. We were doing circuts and he kept saying 'Your too high, your too high' !!. I had 400 UL hours at the time, and because UL engines wern't necessarily reliable then, I was always taught to stay high enough in the circut, to make the runway. Next time he said I was too high I put the aircraft into a nice short side slip and lost 100ft, then I said 'hows that ?. He never told me I was too high again. I heard him later telling one of the other instructors 'he put it into a perfect side slip, I couldn't believe it !!'

 

I do agree with you on the fact that the side slip is a manouver for the experienced pilot, and not the amateur. But if you don't learn it during basic student training, like Tomo has for instance, when do you learn it ???..........Those CTs are a great looking little ultralight and I'm sure they slip fine.....................................................................................

 

 

[Tomo]

Oky Doky....

 

I believe we are kinda chasing each others tail's a bit here, so I'll try my best to clarify it a little.

 

What Wag's is saying ~

 

Back to the approach - established drift is maintained into the flare and just before touchdown the aircraft is aligned with the runway with rudder while simultaneously applying aileron to keep the wings level. Sometimes it requires quite a boot full of rudder (perhaps up to full rudder in max x-wind conditions) with a considerable amount of aileron to keep the wings level because of the secondary effect of controls. Go try it by setting the aircraft up in an approach configuration at 3000 ft AGL and see just how much aileron you need to keep the wings level when you apply a good boot-full of rudder. Yaw the aircraft left and right while applying aileron to keep the wings level with the horizon. If nothing else it will help remind you of the ineffectiveness and limits of your flying controls at low airspeed.Wings are maintained level (or even very slightly lowered into wind) with aileron throughout the touchdown and roll-out using rudder to keep the aircraft aligned with the runway centreline. Running along on one wheel looks cool but doesn't achieve anything more than positive control does. A positive landing under full control will ensure you will not loose control of the aircraft. The intention should be to get the aircraft on the ground and away from the effects of the x-wind... not floating down the strip hoping a gust doesn't pick up the into wind wing and give you more troubles than Speed Gordon can control while you have both a high nose attitude and low airspeed. That is a recipe for disaster!

 

It is my personal opinion that to teach approaches with crossed controls all the way down final is asking for, and probably setting up for trouble! Side slipping should be reserved for getting rid of extra height, and then only used as a last resort if the runway you are approaching is limiting and you have exhausted all other methods of washing off excess height.

Is what we all do, right? And, in the process we are going cross controlled, so in retrospect - a side slip is generating at touch down.

 

I sometimes put down one wheel in the Drifter if it is really strong crosswind, just to stop myself being blown away (you've got to keep that wing down other wise you haven't enough aileron to put it back). But generally as a rule I try and land both wheels down, lot less stress that way, especially in the Jab.

 

As for side slipping on finals, It's only for that unwanted lift etc on finals that puts you higher than wanted, so slip it in. Or in my case, sometimes just for fun and practice.

 

And for Tiger Moths, Austers, or any aircraft with a big engine out front, you have to slip it in so you can see where your heading, flicking it straight at touch down.

 

My instructor didn't let me go solo until I could fly along at 3' and side slip from side to side keeping straight with the runway and at the same height. Though that is in a Drifter... so sideslips are part of the experience.

 

"S" turns, I'd keep that for the engine failure in a paddock, but it's not a bad thing to keep up your sleeve if needed, not normal practice, but it's good to know.

 

So we have a few discussions happening.

 

One - letting your aircraft 'Yaw' into wind on finals, kicking it straight just before touch down. (most of us do that I'm sure)

 

Two - Side slipping, a very useful thing if needed, and used a lot on some aircaft.

 

Three - "S" turns, I've never done that, or seen it till the video, in a powered aircraft on finals with engine still operative anyway... in gliders it is a pretty normal thing.

 

Four - Use of flaps, and terminology... up to the pilot's discretion, obviously Wag's would know the "Professional" way of putting it being in the Airline group of pilots.

 

And anything else that has been thrown in, so lets not get ourselves confused, because it is causing a lot of uncertainty in everyone, especially the knew pilots to be... :thumb_up:

 

 

[wags]

Big engines?

 

Hey TOMO... have a look at the Auster and Tiger... not much heavier than a lot of our RAAus aircraft and the engine is far less powerful than the Rotax 912... but if you couldn't slip one on final you certainly learnt how to do a go-around!

 

As for opening my mind to this maneuver Maj... that was a technique you had to use with Austers, Tigers and Chipmunks and with time in all 3 types as well as instructing in them I think I know a little bit about side slipping. Guess i had to "open my mind" or I'd still be up there - somewhere!

 

 

[Tomo]

Hey TOMO... have a look at the Auster and Tiger... not much heavier than a lot of our RAAus aircraft and the engine is far less powerful than the Rotax 912... but if you couldn't slip one on final you certainly learnt how to do a go-around!

Not talking about power... the Size (bulk) of the engine, making it harder to see over the front.

 

 

[wags]

I'm incorrect.

 

Sorry guys... said the engine was less powerful than a Rotax. Not correct. When I looked up my old pilot notes I found they used (basically) a 130HP Gypsy Major.

 

Empty weight of Tiger was 500 kgs, Auster 475 kgs and Chippie 647 kgs. Yes they were bulky motors but on approach you had reasonable good visibility due to the approach attitude, but just like any tailwheel aircraft on the ground taxying was a place "S" turns were in great demand.

 

 

[Spin]

Hmmm, can't claim experience reaching back to when Pontius was a student pilot, however I recall my PPL instructor, who was an ex Airforce instructor and current 737 captain, showing me both methods of cross wind approach and insisting that I demonstrate an ability to do them both. He also indicated a preference for a crabbing approach, pointing out that his 737 didn't have all that much clearance under the engines, but I'm afraid labelling a cross controlled, slipping approach wrong, is coming on a little strong!

 

Although it can be a little irritating to have an instructor pull you up on a technique which another had insisted on only the week before, I think that being shown a variety of skills and having to adapt your flying is wothwhile in itself and keeps you on your toes. For example when converting to RA Aus, I have had an instructor who comes from an ultralight background insist on glide approaches only, height on final being adjusted by varying the length of the base leg and yes, slipping too. Others from a GA or airline background have a strong preference for "proper" circuits and no qualms about applying power to cater for unexpected sink on base or final. With a modern four stroke, the latter is probably a realistic reflection of the chances of things going quiet on you, however, should the Drifter bug bite, then the ultralight approach is probably necessary, given the two strokes greater propensity to disappoint.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Firstly, for the spectators, it is extremely dangerous to think you can learn by correspondence.

 

For a start different people describe the same actions in different ways creating confusion

 

Secondly, the place to learn techniques like this is with your instructor, who has a better idea of when the limit is being approached and can take over if you screw up.

 

Thirdly, one of the dangers of this forum is that people come on and post information which relates to the aircraft they fly and which may be quite inappropriate for another person's aircraft, experience or location.

 

If you are going to offer open ended advice across it needs to be suitable for all, not just the aircraft or group of aircraft you fly.

 

For example, last year there were several occasions where some people offered strongly held opinions on handling aircraft - but they flew Drifters etc, and what they were talking about was quite inappropriate for more powerful, faster aircraft.

 

 

[wags]

Good basic techniques.

 

I'll say it once more... good basic techniques will follow you to any aircraft type you wish to fly and allow you to fly safely and competently. Poor technique will soon sort the pilots who know what they are doing from those who do not.

 

 

[Spin]

wags, I don't think that anyone is debating the premise as you have stated it here. Where we do differ however is in your calling the cross controlled approach "an incorrect technique" in some of your earlier posts. Forgive me for pointing out that rubbishing all contrary opinion on the grounds of your years of experience doesn't do much to assist the discussion, particularly where instructors of equal or greater experience do teach this technique. I fully agree however, that the cross controlled approach does not have universal application and will say that other than during my PPL lessons, I have not used it.

 

 

[Tracktop]

Hi

 

I hadn't been following this thread but have just read through it.

 

Flying a trike and not 3 axis means I don't have detailed knowledge or opinions of some of the discussion put forward BUT

 

As stated on the link you click to get to the video ( and as such you accept it for what it is)-

 

MOST IMPORTANT wording - is - Introductory Video

 

NOT a training video to be used in isolation.

 

Give the authors a break

 

IMO They have done a really great job in trying to promote your (my) sport by showing some of the simple complexities required to control / operate a small aircraft in circuit.

 

It Gives the targeted audience - non flyer / new student a confident, clear, detailed easy to follow and watch idea of what is required and some incentive to want to learn how to fly one of these things.

 

This targeted audience hopefully will then go on to, or continue to, receive detailed instruction from their CFI / trainig school in how, and what they should and shouldn't be doing to fly their aircraft of choice.

 

My training has been that regardless of your experience level, before you undergo a new maneuver / technique etc you run it by a CFI or at least someone else with experience.

 

For goodness sake look at it from the purpose it was made and thank the guys for the many simple important basic messages contained.

 

A few examples - Look, make calls, fly precise etc, not to mention the visual description of just what a circuit is.

 

Don't hang on every word, and analyse every frame.

 

GREAT VIDEO for its intended use - WELL DONE

 

 

[pete duncan]

Ah yes, an introductory video, that is what we viewed. Top marks to those that went to all that effort in the production. Hey it certainly generated a fair amount of comment. Perhaps the next one they do could include those maneouvers that we may never have the capability or chance of doing . Something like carrier landings, ag flying , the roulettes or a war games training exercise in an f111. That would realy get us wondering about our skill levels.

 

Forums such as this are a great info resource , it makes me realise you just keep on learning and have to be flexiable enough to change your ideas.

 

Enough idle banter from me for now. I want to know what the weather will be like @ 0530 so I can get in the air. See you in the sky.

 

 

[octave]

A few random thoughts (with no criticism intended towards anyone)

 

I would imagine that if 10 CFIs made such a video that each one would attract

 

some form of criticism.

 

I am not sure "bad influence" on low timers should be such a problem, I consider myself a "low time" (90 hours but 35 of it was 20 years ago). I have read many interesting techniques and ideas on this forum but before I would take them on board, like any information gathered from the net, these ideas must be run through several filters ie the experience and qualifications of the poster, my own research and of course most inportantly my clubs CFI who knows my abilities.

 

Having said that, I found the video intersting but like some others I did not agree with everthing