Misc aircraft ownership questions

[DarkSarcasm]

Sorry in advance for the 'stream of consciousness' nature of this post...I'm thinking as I type, If it makes no sense, again I apologise. I guess I'm trying to sort out my thoughts by asking for advice

 

This is purely for curiosity, I am nowhere near actually considering owning a plane. Interestingly when I first started flying I thought that I'd never want to own a plane because of the costs and having to deal with maintenance requirements but now I know that I want to own my own plane someday.

 

My (very likely unreachable) dream is to own a plane by the time I'm 25 (so another 2 years and a couple of months to go). I've started looking at the planes for sale in magazines etc to see how prices are going...I know that I'd want a 2-seater something, probably not too different from the Jab I'm learning in (speed-wise etc) but haven't thought any further than that. I know that it'd have to be second-hand and probably factory built (I've heard you can rent factory built ones out to flying schools to help pay for costs?)

 

My main problem is that I have no idea about the costs related to plane ownership. Things like hangarage costs - does anyone store a plane at YLIL (since that is where I fly atm) either hangared or tie-down and how much does it cost?

 

I'm guessing that like most expensive things (cars, computers etc), planes tend to devalue rather than increase in value? So you can't really hope that you'll sell it for more than you paid...

 

I guess my main question is, if you fly say an hour or so a week (maybe 2 or so hours some weeks, maybe none a week in winter, something like that...prolly fly more if it was my own plane), is plane ownership worth it or is it simply for the joy of owning your own plane?

 

Thanks in advance guys. I'm unoccupied atm so decided to ask some questions that have been bouncing around my mind recently :)

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Darky, Certainly no problems thinking about these things now, but I would suggest firstly get the solo out of the way, and get the license. Then, get rides in, or fly several of the aircraft you may be interested in. Don't get sold one any one type in particular IE: the one you learn in. There are many great different aircraft out there and they all offer different experiences, if you feel real competent and happy with a particular aircraft, then you start talking pre-purchase inspection and haggling about money. Try them all. Don't be in a hurry, there are certainly lemons out there just like cars. Yes, hangar rent, you need it but you hate it . No one in their right mind wants to leave their aircraft out in the elements, so it's a necessary evil.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Darky, Certainly no problems thinking about these things now, but I would suggest firstly get the solo out of the way, and get the license.

I tend to like to plan things way ahead of when they're going to happen

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Have you started to plan your wedding yet ?????

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Have you started to plan your wedding yet ?????

Just what cars I'm going to have...had to give my Dad advance warning so he can save up for the Rolls Royce :big_grin:

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Hi Darky,

 

As Maj says, check out as many different aircraft as you can. By the sounds of it you have plenty of years to go before old age is going to slow you down. You might want to get a tail-wheel, or god forbid, even a weight-shift:lol 8: endorsement after you get your X-Country and Pax.

 

Getting yourself along to ultralight gatherings is another great way to glean knowledge and experience so you should get yourself to Natfly at Easter. You might even find a spare right seat if you start looking.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[eastmeg2]

I tend to like to plan things way ahead of when they're going to happen

Now that you've taken up flying, you will need a bigger hat to keep all those thoughts in.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

or god forbid, even a weight-shift:lol 8: endorsement

aha, in the nicest possible way, that's not going to happen...I like have the cockpit sides around me, I think I'd be worried about 'shifting' too far and falling off the side!

 

Now that you've taken up flying, you will need a bigger hat to keep all those thoughts in.

That's why I have a Top Hat - nice and roomy!

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Thanks, I'll send you a PM now :)

 

I have heard that it's possible to rent out the aircraft to a flying school to offset some costs...has anyone done this? If it could be organised, it could be a good way to offset some of the costs of ownership (of course, you'd need to hope that the flying school would want to do it!)

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Yes that is called cross hire....but......first you need a flying school that needs another AC and you need the right type of AC that the school wants and is prepared to train in.......then you need the school to utilize the AC other wise there is no benefit. Cross hire has its benefits and its pitfalls you need to get good advice on this before you go down that road with any expectation.

Not to mention, when I get a plane it's going to have custom tail art, not sure how a flying school might feel about that...although, maybe it would increase their sales

 

 

[Guest Walter Buschor]

Hi Darky,

 

the various comments gave me a smile. Sounds great to have your own plane at 25.

 

There are of course some small and totally insignificant other things like House, car , wife , and God forbid - Sprogs !- things one has no control over. All , or most of these things come to pass and all have a (negative) flow-on effect on flying.

 

At your age ( at any age really ) renting is probably always the cheapest option. It is however always wonderful to see one's own plane when you open the hangar. It just waits for you and has not been used or abused by someone - else. This is why many own their own. In dollar terms it never makes sense.

 

( there is however someone who bought a new Sportstar as a tax-deduction and made the plane available to the Gympie flying school. )

 

safe flying

 

Walter

 

 

[jetjr]

Darky, owning is great but you will need more than 70hrs/yr to justify what you are looking at Id reckon.

 

Big costs are Interest (or at least the interest you could be making), Insurance (putting it online raises this dramatically), hangerage and breakdowns. Most other costs are largely per hour used.

 

Depreciation isnt too bad on planes, especially second hand ones, but if you lease it they wont account for this and you have to pay it off at the similar rate to a car.

 

Putting a plane online seems like a good idea but they tend to get knocked around and people often dont look after them as well as you would like. Also there always it little maint jobs to be done. From what Ive seen owners rarely get the hours they need unless its something nice, Im in regional area though.

 

You can also not be able to get the AC at short notice and when you are free and wanting to fly so are your renters.

 

Id look into well looked after old model Jab or something, they are the same $$ as a new car, maybe buy between a few like minded people (syndicate).

 

Small maint jobs will be your headache if you arent doing them yourself.

 

Not what you want to hear but hiring is by far the most sensible way to go, If theres planes availiable this is definitely the way to go.

 

JR

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

I do agree that hiring would be cheaper and owning is an expensive route and, yes, I definitely probably should be putting the money towards sensible things like a house

 

If I looked at it logically, then I'd never want to own a plane. And when I can actually afford it, I'll probably do the sensible thing and put it towards a house or something. I think I just like the idea of owning a plane and I'm only thinking of the fun parts like flying it rather than the less fun parts like maintenance and cost

 

 

[Tomo]

aha, in the nicest possible way, that's not going to happen...I like have the cockpit sides around me, I think I'd be worried about 'shifting' too far and falling off the side!

We all say that at first until we experience the "no sides" around us... and then it's the best in the right weather! :thumb_up: (never been in a trike, but I'm assuming it'd be very similar to the drifter, in that there is nothing much around you)

 

Don't worry, you'll get there!

 

Don't give away aircraft ownership completely, I'm hoping to own mine one day, just got to buy a bit of land first, that way It is a little harder to buy myself into a corner...

 

 

[turboplanner]

Buy yourself the book Airplane Ownership by Ronald J. Wanttaja, available from amazon.com

 

He puts the various scenarios quite well.

 

There was a thread here a while back which made it fairly obvious that a lot of people are in denial about what it costs them to own their own RA aircraft, and the consensus from both the book and that thread was that if you just want to fly for an hour or so a week, you're better off hiring.

 

I fekt the real spli between owning and hiring came when you wanted to do regular cross country flying, when you can go when you want to go without finding someone has booked your aircraft, or its off line for maintenance, and if the weather closes in after you've arrived at your destination, there's no pressure to return the aircraft for training etc.

 

I did a lot of research on putting an aircraft on line with flying schools, clubs etc.

 

In the book the pitfalls are laid out and Wantajja is not very enthusiastic - from operators not paying you, to overservicing, to using their own aircrfaft at full capacity and only using yours for the occasional overflow etc. to not being able to use your aircraft because its been bookede to damage which "nobody caused".

 

All of these things can be managed, but the key ingredient is just the same as car and truck rentals - Utilization. If you walk into a facility and about 20 people are milling around, it's a good indicator that potentially there's a chance of getting a decent number of hours up per month.

 

Having said all that, it's clear that many people on this forum have found ways to obtain an aircraft and get many hours of enjoyment from it.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Maybe I should just try and win lotto...anyone got any numbers they recommend? :big_grin:

 

 

[Tomo]

Maybe I should just try and win lotto...anyone got any numbers they recommend? :big_grin:

Don't bother.... every ticket you buy could go towards owning an aircraft remember!? ;)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Darky, you're going to be a lawyer!

 

 

[shags_j]

Out of interest guys,

 

This question seems to come up monthly. Probably should sticky an answer that covers the cost of aircraft ownership. Just a thought...

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Out of interest guys,This question seems to come up monthly. Probably should sticky an answer that covers the cost of aircraft ownership. Just a thought...

Might be a good idea...

 

Sorry if I missed a thread about this already

 

 

[shags_j]

Not at all, usually someone will hijack a thread about it (I know I did at one point ;) )

 

 

[facthunter]

Aircraft ownership.

 

Never had a "misc" aircraft but owning an aircraft is as bad as owning a boat. I have had three planes, (not all at once), and it resembles a nightmare that you never wake up from sometimes. Renting is always cheaper. The only exception is the basic aircraft like thrusters/drifters etc. These should be loved and looked after and flown by the owner who has a good knowledge of how to inspect and service them. You could not trust many others to do it. Another important thing is "hangar rash" .What happens to your plane when you are not there? Do people move it around?. Take it through the doors when they are not fully open. Park next to you and belt the wing tips with theirs? ALL this happens even at (fly-ins). Of course it can happen to school aircraft as well. When I fly a drifter that is unfamiliar to me I would take a good half hour to inspect it. If it was last flown by me and stored properly it could be inspected in less than ten minutes. These simple aircraft can be very safe structurally if you understand them and maintain them and would make great "first" aircraft. If they are in good condition there should always be a market for them, if you want something else later. Flying out in the open is real flying, and must improve your awareness. Nev

 

 

[shags_j]

Problem with renting though,which I'm sure Dark is thinking of (i certainly know I am), is that you can't just go somewhere for a weekend. I want to go to Natfly next year but I can't rent an aircraft to go somewhere for three days. Or warwick overnight in july etc.

 

maybe there are rental services out there that let you do this, not too sure, but all the ones I've seen want 100hrs or something.

 

 

[Tracktop]

What about joining or forming a syndicate where a few people own and share the cost of an ac. Gives you an ac that you own and can use for extended trips at reduced individual costs

 

I assume there are RAA ac syndicates as I know there are trike and GA syndicates.

 

 

[facthunter]

Syndicates.

 

The advantage of a syndicate is the rate of aircraft utilisation is higher. Your fixed costs are therefore spread over more hours. The disadvantages are really about how reasonable your group behaves to usage,(how you decide who gets it when a few want it at the same time) care, and doing the chores about the scene in a fair way. One other problem is that the insurance rate will relate to the lowest hours pilot. Apart from that, why not? You will need to write some form of agreement around things like disposal of one's share, method of funding costs as they come up, etc. Just common sense really. Nev