Landing

[DarkSarcasm]

17

 

 

[motzartmerv]

how many consecutive??.. any other other sequences done, precautionary search, steep turns

 

etc.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

We did steep turns about 6 missions ago... but other than that pretty much consecutive. A few of the recent ones have been in a crosswind which has been mixing things up a bit too...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

xwinds??...hmmm.. how often are you flying??..

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Twice a week (since mid-October, before that the plan was once a week but the weather didn't always co-operate) - Wednesday and Saturday.

 

Is this just idle curiosity or is it leading somewhere?...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Good, recency saves hours and $$ in the long run. I understand that xwinds are par for the course at Ylil, but there's an old rule of thumb "1 hour in the wrong conditions cost's you 3 hours to get back on track." Have you been flying early mornings or late arvo's to get the best chance at good conditions?. The Jab is a different acft in the chop, xwind's etc, i'd strongly recommend you get ur FI out of bed early and avoid the xinds for now. There's extra control inputs needed to negotiate the xwind that should come on top of pre conditioned cognitive skill's, its just too much to try and learn to flare, hold off and cross the controls all at once.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

I fly in the mornings.

 

I agree the recency is really helpful. During the uni semester I could only fly once a week (had to fit studying in there somewhere sigh) and with lessons getting cancelled due to weather, sometimes it'd be a few weeks between lessons which sucked. I can see a noticable difference now I'm flying so often.

 

With the crosswinds, each time it's been 'We'll see how it goes but if it gets too bad we'll knock off' - since we haven't knocked off yet, I must be handling it well :big_grin:. I'm actually liking the whole crosswinds thing. It's actually really helping me to get better at controlling the aircraft on short final...previously I had a tendency to let it go all over the shop and not correct quickly enough but I'm getting better at that. Also I have to think more about the wind direction and how to correct for it during the circuit, which is good experience. Plus it's actually helping my confidence level because I know that I must be improving if I'm trusted to go up in less than perfect weather, so I feel more confidence in my flying abilities. :)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thats good. Anything that improves confidence is a good thing.

 

I'll shutup now, before i get jumped on.

 

Enjoy

 

 

[GraemeK]

1 hour in the wrong conditions cost's you 3 hours to get back on track.

Absolutely! But the guys at YLIL are very sensitive to this in my experience, and will generally avoid taking you up if the conditions (even though flyable) might dent your confidence. And on the other hand, if they think you can handle it without losing your confidence, they'll go for it - one of my best lessons was in some very bad turbulence on the last half of downwind and on to base, with updrafts and downdrafts and crosswind on final, but the instructor knew I would be able to handle it and it really did help my confidence. I was the last to fly that day, later lessons were cancelled due to the bumps.

 

As for the "feel" thing, I'm with Darky - it's about the picture, the seat of your pants, the peripheral vision, the sounds, the "vibe" that gives you the "feel" for the flare. At least it does for me - I was hopeless when I tried to over-analyse it (still pretty hopeless, but getting better!).

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

I have to agree with Yenn in his post

 

Keep eyes on the flare point

 

Then to end of runway.

 

I, like others learning had the problems last year and the above helped greatly.

 

I had got out of the habit described above for some reason. Probably my "old XXXX age"

 

For those new flyers I can say that one of my sub-consious problems that came to light and improved my landings was the thought of running out of runway distance, especially on touch and goes. I was tying to "put her down" if the flare went on too long from either speed or wind variations.

 

I found out recently when landing on a 1600 m strip and I was not in a hurry to put down as the exit was at the far end, a rare greaser!

 

I hope the above is taken as "my experiences" and in no way suggesting that it is correct but may help someone who is like Darky trying to understand the reasons for hard landing.

 

My thoughts.

 

Phil.

 

 

[flying dog]

I guess a nice thing to find is a LONG runway. Go in to land but hold it off a long way down the runway. Apply a little power and hold it off.

 

Feel what it is like.

 

If you land, add a bit more power and just get off the ground again.

 

(Or am I digging a hole for myself saying that?)

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Short pilots

 

A little something for instructors - I had flying experience before my ppl but had never actually landed the plane (did take-off, navs etc with father). I am 141cm (4'7") so when I came to land my instructor told me to "put the nose on the horizon" and I did a bad landing every time. I suppose he thought if I had been flying I would ace this and didn't bother showng me.

 

Eventually he got frustrated, grabbed the yoke and said "HERE!!" I looked at him and said "that's not the horizon, that's half way up the sky." Then he realised our eye levels were quite disparate. He jacked me up on 2 cushions and we tried again. By that time I was well versed in doing it wrong, feeling wobbly on the cushions and had lost confidence. Even now I approach landing with apprehension.

 

Try sitting far forward (on the edge of the seat) and low to see a different perspective. Keep this in mind when teaching juniors and shorties.

 

Sue

 

 

[flying dog]

Flyingvizslas,

 

I thought I was short. I am only 151 cm tall. I hear exactly what you are saying.

 

Oh the fun I had with people using visual references.

 

Anyway, safe flying.

 

:)

 

 

[hihosland]

One way to get an idea of how a correct approach will appear to you in your aeroplane is to park the plane at the threashold and get a good mental image of how the far end of the runway looks.

 

Then look down at your lap to re focus your eyes, close your eyes and with head up try and visualise how the end of the runway looks.

 

Open eyes and compare.

 

When the visualisation and the reality match up it is time to go flying.

 

cheers

 

Davidh

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Hiho, dont do that when I'm in the circuit. One of my pet hates is mongrels sitting on the threshold contemplating their navel, or whatever the hell they do, meanwhile in the real world people are going round and round and round.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

A little something for instructors - I had flying experience before my ppl but had never actually landed the plane (did take-off, navs etc with father). I am 141cm (4'7") so when I came to land my instructor told me to "put the nose on the horizon" and I did a bad landing every time. I suppose he thought if I had been flying I would ace this and didn't bother showng me. Eventually he got frustrated, grabbed the yoke and said "HERE!!" I looked at him and said "that's not the horizon, that's half way up the sky." Then he realised our eye levels were quite disparate. He jacked me up on 2 cushions and we tried again. By that time I was well versed in doing it wrong, feeling wobbly on the cushions and had lost confidence. Even now I approach landing with apprehension.

 

Try sitting far forward (on the edge of the seat) and low to see a different perspective. Keep this in mind when teaching juniors and shorties.

 

Sue

I'm on the short side too (although not as short as you, I admit, I'm 5'3) and my instructor is pretty tall (over 6ft) so we have the same problem. Luckily for me, instead of telling me what the nose attitude is for each exercise, he demonstrates the exercise and askes me what I see. Also, sometimes when I'm flying, he scrunches down to see what things look like at my level (rather funny to see)

 

Definitely an important point for instructors to remember, I agree :thumb_up:

 

 

[Bryon]

Darky, contrary to popular opinion, size does not matter.

 

I am 6 foot (180cm) but I still stuffed up a couple of landings the other day

 

I was in a Jab 160 and just could not get it right. I went home very pxxxxd off

 

It happens to all of us..

 

 

[metanoia]

I'm on the short side too (although not as short as you, I admit, I'm 5'3) and my instructor is pretty tall (over 6ft) so we have the same problem. Luckily for me, instead of telling me what the nose attitude is for each exercise, he demonstrates the exercise and askes me what I see. Also, sometimes when I'm flying, he scrunches down to see what things look like at my level (rather funny to see)Definitely an important point for instructors to remember, I agree :thumb_up:

I might try that with my instructor - I'm 5'6 and he's a little taller than me - but i am sure that we see different things when it comes to final...

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Then he realised our eye levels were quite disparate. He jacked me up on 2 cushions and we tried again. By that time I was well versed in doing it wrong, feeling wobbly on the cushions and had lost confidence. Even now I approach landing with apprehension.

Hi Sue,

 

Just out of curiosity, did he put the cushions under you (1) because you couldn't see out properly (couldn't see the cowling/nose/etc) or (2) simply so you'd be at the same eye level as him?

 

I'm just thinking that if it was simply so you'd be at the same eye level as him, that doesn't really seem the right reason for doing it. I'm not trying to diss your instructor (I know it feels like that sometimes when people give you advice, I feel like that too sometimes) but I'm just thinking that instead of trying to put you at HIS eye level, he should try and have a look at what you'd see and teach you a different way other than "nose on horizon". As I said in an earlier post, my instructor and I are at least a foot different in height so instead of telling me what attitudes he sees in each maneuver, instead he shows me the exercise and asks me what I see and, sometimes, squishes down in his seat while I'm flying to see how things look like from my level.

 

Plus, you said that you don't feel too stable on the cushions, do you feel like you're going to tip off or something? Unless you need them to be able to see the nose/cowling/etc, maybe you should ditch them and try and find a different way of working out what you should be seeing? It can't help you when you're trying to do all the various things you need to do on approach/landing without worrying about falling off your stack of cushions!

 

Also, when I was taught to land, I wasn't taught to look for a particular attitude (like "nose on horizon"), maybe you need to ask your FI if there's some other way of describing what should be happening or what you should be seeing?

 

As I said, I'm not trying to say your instructor is wrong, just trying to suggest a different way of doing things since it sounds like you're not really happy about approach/landing.

 

Hope I might've helped a little :)

 

EDIT: I just re-read your post and it sounds like you might be licenced already which makes my post kind of useless I guess. When I first read it I thought you were still digging away at landings with your FI, but now it sounds like you're already past there. Anyways, maybe I might've helped someone else at least :)

 

 

[Tigershark21]

What REALLY helped me with landings is flying a different plane for a while.OK, I'll shut up now.

No no... you're totally right you know!!!!

 

 

[flying dog]

Well, nose to horizon is ok, it is just your picutre is different to anyone else's.

 

Maybe get the instructor to get the plane at the attitude required and you look around and learn what it looks like from your position.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea, standard practise fellas.:thumb_up:

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Short pilots

 

Hi Darky,

 

I got the ppl about 15-20yrs ago back when you had to do a set number of hours for a licence (circuits 5hrs dual, 5 solo). My instructor had been taught to teach by visual cues and it had worked for him so far.

 

When I bought my first plane I tried to get the seat track extended to come further forward but CASA wouldn't have any of this "departure from the approved configuration" as if this would make the plane dangerous. I tried for rudder extensions and my LAME designed some that I could clip on but CASA would only approve permanently bolted on, fit & remove by LAME only. I looked into a blackwood pole (hand operation of the rudders for disabled people) but the Cessna version was poor. By that time my plane was being used by the flying school and private hire and any permanent alteration to suit me was impractical.

 

I still fly with 5 cushions, 2 under and 3 behind. The first lot were what could be found at short notice around the flying school, a combination of hard rounded (that I rolled off), to ultra spongy that were no use when pushing against them for rudders.

 

Then I tried a conversion to RAA. The ultralight aero club had a kids car seat for short people in the lightwing (the seats are fixed) but that didn't help me - I sat on the last 2" of the seat and flew from the RH seat as the rudders were marginally closer and used the edge strips on the rudders. On landing I gripped the frame overhead, pulled myself forward and hung on to get full rudder authority. That was better than ending up on the floor which I did on the first landing.

 

If only I had eaten my weetbix when I was a kid!

 

Sue

 

 

[facthunter]

Seating position.

 

You MUST be able to move the controls fully, and the eye height IF not critical, is still very inportant. Large aircraft have fully adjustable seats, (fore and aft and up and down) and everyone takes the trouble to get it adjusted correctly before landing. I would make a hingeing set of cushions for your self and most likely they would be suitable for most aircraft. Foam rubber (not too hard) might be the go. Get it right and it will make all the difference. Nev

 

 

[pradeep]

Yes I noticed this is an old thred, but couldn't resist a reply as I am in the situation as was Darky on landing (and I didn't want to start a new thred on this).

 

After several attempts of mis-landing(?), I am improving now - I think.

 

As one of your posts said a 'feeling' to 'take action' was one of the thing that I found on flare. I still (re)act on the feeling of the runway and the environment, but i would say the actual touch down is a more cordinated action - at least I think so and I am doing so.

 

For all those who have posted on this thread thank you for all your comments and encouragement.

 

I don't know whether it is only me - I ususally 'mind train' the parts of flight which I didn't get on the first place and I couldn't wait until I try and see whether that worked or not (most of the time I couldn't sleep as my mind always on the traninig and eager to test). When it works that is the most exciting thing for me and usually make me confident.

 

Thank you all.

 

PS: The Flight training Handbook from FAA is really useful and helping me in several ways ti understand the proper flying apart from my FI.

 

cheers,

 

pradeep