Landing

[icebob]

Hi Darky,

 

Don't give up on it, my initial training was in the 1960's in a Cub, he was the local fish spotter.

 

He did a number of runs along the full length of the runway at 20 feet and got me to look ahead and to a Yellow flag he had planted off to one side, he maintained by scanning both you use peripheral vision more and that training gives you more height perception, hay it worked for me. One day he removed the flag and after that most landings were fine as long as i took a ladder to get out of the hole,ha ha.

 

Brings back good memories of fuel and rotting fish, yuk!

 

Bob.

 

 

[Ultralights]

I think you are spending too much time and effort being concerned with flare heights and heights above the strip.

 

As you approach flare height, there Is only 1 critical factor to a good landing---- correct airspeed! As you begin the flare, move your eyes to the far horizon or feature at the end of the strip, AND KEEP IT THERE! If you keep stuffing the landing, in being too hight, it's almost always because you looked in front of you and not at the horizon. Even if it's just a microsecond glance, subconsciously, it's still enough to stuff it. If you hit pretty hard aka- carrier landing, it's because you flared too late. If your speed is spot on, these are the only 2 big factors in landing. Don't concern yourself with all the other crap. Once you mastered landing in good conditions, then your mind is more free to concentrate on other factors like crosswinds.

 

 

[Jay]

It will simply fall into place with time, focus on other things and relax a little . After all these years I don't think any two landings of mine have been the same.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Darky, sorry I came in late on this post, you just need to mellow out, relax, you must be master of the aeroplane IE: you put it where you want it, not the reverse...and learn to fly one foot off the runway, then you just ease off the throttle and the plane will land...simple really . You'll get it, we have faith in you.................................................................................

 

 

[Tomo]

We have all gone through the same stage with this Darky, so don't fret to much. But I can understand where you're coming from with thinking you'll never get it, I've had to keep Mum energized in thinking she will get it!

 

So you are in the exact same position as my Mum, she is flying great but just hasn't found the ground yet. Some pick it up quicker than others, but those that take the longest usually end up the best at it in the long run...

 

I did 36 landings one day, and by the last few I think I worked it out! Mind you it was spread out during the day, so wasn't all in one hit! and it was in a Drifter, so a little different to the Jab.

 

I still am learning how to land the Jabiru 'nicely', I got to remember it ain't a tail dragger and stop trying to three point land it!

 

Maybe synchronize turning things off an on with 'definite' parts of the circuit - like turning off carb heat - do it after you radio turning finals etc... that way it will eventually all fall into place.

 

I used to forget to squeeze the brakes after take off, but now it just happens automatically, Trust me it does happen!

 

Keep it up! You're doing great...!

 

 

[pudestcon]

I know where you are at Darky,

 

I was there 4 weeks ago in the Thruster. It took me forever to get the picture correct until one day it just 'clicked'. I've gone ahead in leaps and bounds since and I'm enjoying the flying so much solo. I know it is frustrating sometimes and you don't know when you are going to get it. Look at that reference point at the far end of the strip and it will come to you. Get the airspeed right and then the flare and slowly bleed off the revs and the aircraft will land itself almost.

 

Jezz I'm excited just thinking about it:big_grin: I gotta find a way for another hour in the air this weekend:laugh:

 

Cheers,

 

Pud

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Hi Darky, man, you know how to get these old fulla's talking don't you.

 

Answer me this, can you see the nose of the jab from your seat?. Can you see any of the cowling at all?

 

I bet my hat you can't...

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Answer me this, can you see the nose of the jab from your seat?. Can you see any of the cowling at all?

I bet my hat you can't...

Sorry to disappoint Moza, but I can actually :big_grin: (I can see where you're coming from though, I've wondered about if it's my height too, but I think that much is alright) But yeah, I can see all of the cowling and the nose so that much is all good

 

I'm wondering if when I'm holding off I'm looking in the wrong place... I know I'm meant to look into the distance but is it better to look at the horizon, the end of the runway (they are different) or something else completely?

 

Looking forward to having another crack at landings now, hopefully tomorrow :big_grin:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Bumma, looks like I owe you a hat.-.. Lol.

 

Don't look at the horizon, its too far away, look towards the end of the runway.

 

Have you tried powering up a bit and flying level??

 

Are you using full flap?

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

This landing thing is the most difficult thing I have ever attempted.

True, but I keep reminding myself how it'll feel THAT much more awesome when I master it after all this effort :big_grin:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Dunno if I like the Idea of looking or even glancing sideways. ;)

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

A good landing really starts as you turn for long final.

 

A good and stable approach leads to a good landing....a bad approach leads to a bad landing.

 

 

[GraemeK]

I found this morning that I went better if I didn't look to the end of the runway until I was nearly level ....

I was taught to wait until the runway "flattened" and then look towards the end.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Same here, I've been told to wait for the "perspective change" then look towards the end...of course, it doesn't always happen (yet anyway) but the intention is there!

 

 

[GraemeK]

As you begin the flare, move your eyes to the far horizon or feature at the end of the strip, AND KEEP IT THERE! If you keep stuffing the landing, in being too hight, it's almost always because you looked in front of you and not at the horizon. Even if it's just a microsecond glance, subconsciously, it's still enough to stuff it.

Agree 100% - but the problem I have is I can't help sneaking a glance at the ground in front of me! I know every time I do it, the landing is not ideal - but when I keep my eyes on the end of the runway I can land it nicely.

 

Just practice I guess to overcome the instinct of looking where you're going to land ....

 

 

[Guest Gomer]

You blokes look at where you're going? I'm too scared to open my eyes... :hittinghead:

 

 

[Mazda]

To make sure you are on the runway strip, find reference points you can use on approach, and when taking off too. Fly over a point on the ground.

 

The perspective change is when the threshold rushes up and fills the screen - when it starts to look scary. Roll your eyes along the runway to the end. If you just look up without looking along the runway, you might pull at the same time and balloon. DON'T let it land. There's no hurry. Fly along not letting it land, power back and maintain the attitude to NOT let it land - you'll have to ease back a little. You'll feel it begin to sink, and when it does, raise the nose a little, not above the take off attitude, and you'll be on the ground before you know it.

 

Holding off means don't let it land.

 

 

[turboplanner]

A good landing really starts as you turn for long final.A good and stable approach leads to a good landing....a bad approach leads to a bad landing.

I agree, that;s what I was taught in GA, I'm told that's what miltary pilots are taught, and if my memory is correct that's what Bob Hoover espouses.

 

Doing that a few weeks ago in a C172, when an instructor, unexpectedly said "land it" when we were on downwind, I greased it on from the right seat where I couldn't see the instruments well, didn't have the time to familiarise myself with them, had never flown RH, never flown a 172, and virtually had to go with the seat of the pants (don't worry, the instructors hands were very close to the controls).

 

On the other hand I would liken a J170 with it's huge wing lift to riding a buck jumping butterfly, and much can happen between turning final and rounding out, hence the need to learn things like side slips, S turns etc to manage the glide slope.

 

In GA I was taught to look out the side window on flare, and orientate myself with the left threshold and this ultimately produced very consistent smooth landings and no go rounds.

 

I found that technique a disaster in RA, with landings becoming a lottery, and spent several hours retraining myself to look out the front to the end of the runway, hold the nose in exactly the right attitude, and minutely manage the throttle, and I've got some consistency, so I'd agree with the advice on not looking out the window on some RA aircraft.

 

Darky, another thing you could do at this point is book double sessions - an hour, 30 mins break and another hour. You usually get the same weather, and the many repeats gets into your subconscious better. You'll identify what's registering in the subconscious when, driving home in a cross wind you find yourself correcting for it with the steering wheel.

 

 

[icebob]

Hi,

 

Has someone been filming my landings again?????:big_grin:

 

 

[facthunter]

Landing technique.

 

IF you are having some difficulty, getting LOTS of opinions is NOT the right way to sort it out. You don't want confusion....I will make some comment about the multiple sessions. If you are concentrating hard for more than about 40 minutes, you start to go backwards, so have a rest., and a talk about it, and then do a bit more. Landing an aircraft is not like lifting weights. Each landing is a bit different,, and put the effort in to get the plane to do exactly what you want, and you have to FLY the plane all the way to the ground . I don't mean just fly it on, but you must control it and be responsive to what it does. Low inertia aircraft are more responsive to wind gusts etc. than heavier ones and are a bit more "lively" on approach. Low circuits, if available, give you more landings and might help to consolidate. Nev..

 

 

[Spin]

I'm with you on that one Nev, discussion like this is interesting for the rest of us but not necessarily helpful to DS - stick with what your instructor tells you and it'll come.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

I'm not saying I'm actually applying anything suggested here to my landings, but it is interesting to see what people say/do :)

 

 

[Guest check-in]

Darky, assuming that you have read all the stuff about runway perspective, the visual illusions of upslope downslope etc, I won't go there. I deal with a variety of aircraft sizes and speed ranges. In the past have flown things with such widely varying flare-heights as DC3, Cessna twins and singles and then gone out for some 'therapy' in a hang glider - sometimes all on the same day. Working as a ferry pilot, often the first landing on a type never flown before would be after a 12 hour sector. Here are my tricks of the trade:

 

• Try flying down the runway in landing configuration at just above landing speed, getting as low as you dare without touching the wheels - this will approximate flare height, and if the speed is low enough will also be close to the correct landing attitude. You will also learn not to over-control in pitch, as so close to the ground every input will be immediately apparent. In your case, do this exercise with your instructor!
   
   
  
• If you consistently flare too high, you may be sitting too high. Drop your seat a couple of notches (or remove cushions)
   
   
  
• You may also be sitting too far forward (almost everyone does in the beginning unless they are 7 ft tall). Consistent with being able to get full rudder travel, sit as far back as possible
   
   
  
• If you consistently flare too low - ie. 'bury' the poor bloody thing - raise seat height 1 notch at a time or add a thin cushion
   
   
  
• Starting at about 400 ft and once or twice between then and about 200 feet, momentarily take your eyes away from the runway and focus on your left wingtip. I am not an eye specialist (in fact know nothing about eyes except they go red when you drink too much) but for some reason this trick works well in getting the correct focus after being out there in the wide blue where you are focussed on infinity. Obviously you can't afford to take your eyes away from the aiming point for too long, but a break of a few seconds at the heights I suggest may get you judging flare height a bit better
   
   
  
• Lose the Ray Bans - a baseball cap is adequate for dealing with glare and lets you look in at ASI, look out for traffic and runway without having to adjust for the differing light. I drive with sunnies but have not used them in flying since longer than I can remember. Now that the old peepers need vision correction I have gone for transitions lenses, but they do not darken much in the cockpit; nowhere near as dark as sunglasses
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Hey check-in,

 

Have I mentioned somewhere that I wear Ray Bans or was that just a lucky guess? I have tried flying without sunnies but find that the changes in light and glare while going around the circuit distracts me and drives me nuts. I'll keep the idea in mind though :)

 

Unfortunately the seats in the Jab don't move (it would be bl**dy handy for me if they did). I do use two cushions, but I don't think I'm sitting too far forward. I have to sit this close to get full travel of the rudder pedals (also need to extend the pedals, sigh) and also to comfortably reach the throttle etc. (I never considered myself short until I started flying! And my instructor is over 6ft tall, lucky sod)

 

The thing is, I'm not consistently flaring too high and not consistently flaring too low, I'm doing a little of each! My problem is that I'm finding it hard to judge our height properly. My plan is to get my FI to demonstrate a landing next lesson and I can get all the sight pictures right in my head...I think it's partly that I've become slightly uncertain about what everything should look like during the flare. I think I also don't use my peripheral vision enough, I'm focusing out the front at the end of the runway, rather than also using my peripheral vision to see the side of the runway as well... so much to do when landing, so little time (or so it feels anyway)

 

Thanks for all of your tips, I'll keep them all in mind and see how I go :)

 

 

[Guest check-in]

OK, then I suggest you try the flying down the runway low and slow trick a few times. Much is made of looking at the far end of the runway, but if you fly a taildragger (as I do for fun) or fly with the windscreen all fogged up (as I sometimes do not for fun) you do have to look down and to the side as you transition to the flare. Landing straight into the sun is undesirable but sometimes unavoidable and then you won't be able to see the far end of the runway. So, get looking down and to the side into the scan as well. Truth is, I NEVER look at the far end of the runway; only at the overall perspective (whole thing in middle of windscreen and not moving up, down or sideways) then when close-in (last few hundred feet) just the aiming point. Once at the flare if I can't see over the nose due to attitude (taildragger) or sun glare, I look down and to the side.

 

Hang in there. Once it clicks you will wonder what all the fuss was about.

 

PS: The Ray Bans was a wild guess.