Not a good weekend

[Guest Maj Millard]

Thanks Exadios, It would be interesting to get the story from the horses' mouth on this one ,so to speak. keep us informed in the future if you get a chance please..................................

 

 

[Admin]

Can anyone tell me when the funeral for Ted Berryman is going to be? - please PM me - thanks!

 

 

[Exadios]

Thanks Exadios, It would be interesting to get the story from the horses' mouth on this one ,so to speak. keep us informed in the future if you get a chance please..................................

I will. But remember that my information is third hand. I get it from members Narrogin Flying Club who are getting it from the Bunbury Flying Club. Somebody from the Bunbury Flying Club would be a better source than I.

 

I think when the full story is known it will point out a hole in the training regime. I'm reluctant to believe that an instructor would set a task for a student if he thought the student could not complete it safely. And it is a little hard to blame the student in these situations.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I think you are right Exadios. I notice the previous thread about the Bunbury area where all the big noting was going on has slipped off the forum.

 

 

[Tomo]

Gotta remember the students human factors side of things also... Remember he is going on a Solo Nav, I remember I was nervous at first when doing mine. What does nervousness do to our confidence levels? Low confidence level, cause panic, panic causes getting lost (remember there is really no such thing as getting lost, it is unsure of your position). I know some people who haven't done there nav's yet due to the fear of getting lost... It's a big one for some people, and once that gotten lost thought sets in, everything else disappears out the window, unless you know how to pull yourself together.

 

I know what a little stress/nervous level can do to you, I did the very thing on Tuesday with my check flight when stuffing up the radio, I've done that type of radio call a million times, so why did it go down the drain?

 

Something else to think about anyway.

 

 

[Guest Pioneer200]

I find a good idea when going on a nav somewhere new to go over the area to be covered on google earth and spot landmarks that we be noticed on the trip. This obviously should also be down on the maps you are using for the flight.

 

You can even fly the track you are going to use on goggle earth flight sim mode!!

 

Before take off you need to have a mental picture of what the route is going to look like and have a landmark on or near the route that you can see and track to straight after take off.

 

Thats my thoughts anyway

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

That's good stuff Pioneer. Google earth is a great tool for flight planning on a new unfamiliar route, and like you say you can fly it, prior to flying it !.. Also great for checking out an airport you haven't been to before, or finding a remote property in the bush that otherwise could be hard to find. An amazing tool that we never had in the past.

 

If you can't access google there is no substitute for a pencil line on the map, and some prior flight route familiarizing with features on the map.....................................................

 

 

[facthunter]

Google earth data.

 

Think I would find extensive coverage of the route a bit overwhelming, but I have found topographical data from that source, invaluable for the circuit area and nearest town, rivers etc. Almost makes it like you have been there before. All part of good planning...Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I haven't found it overwhelming at all, it seems to make the flight and nav tasks a lot more relaxing, when you are already familiar with the route. Actually you can spot areas that you weren't aware were there, such as salt lakes, dams etc. I do like to be familiar with a new airport when I go there, and what a great tool for doing that , you can even fly approaches. The is a step foward for safety......................................................................

 

 

[facthunter]

Features.

 

We're probably on the same wavelength. In remote areas, I make the major reference points, road/rail intersections, prominent ranges or salt lakes(permanent). Unless they are very identifiable they are no good as "fixes". I note these on the WAC chart when I draw my lines. I always assume that the GPS will quit. It did once starting on a five hour trip.(remote area). My fault . I hit a button somehow and did not Know enough about it to reset it in the air. Another time it wouldn't acquire satellites and strangely enough that was a day when the Vis. was just about on the minimum for VMC. That's how it goes. Regards Nev

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Perhaps a word of caution is required:-

 

When we use aviation Maps they are dated and in general have a finite life that people should be aware of. That fact is logical and makes sense to all.

 

Google, on the other hand uses data from a variety of sources. I believe that the age of the data in some cases can be quite old, yet in that case it may also butt up to something that was sourced just a month ago.

 

There is no date information on any of the overlays that I'm aware of. So with that in mind, use but not to replace existing map sources which are date controlled.

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Yeah Andy, much better to use an up to date Adelaide VNC to fly to Snowtown!

 

Obviously, the fact that they have a limitted date doesn't mean they are up to date.

 

Trusting Google Earth at face value is foolish, but so is trusting our expensive Airservices maps.

 

 

[Guest Pioneer200]

If you study your maps , draw a line on the map, then check it out on google earth I struggle to see how you can go wrong

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

If you study your maps , draw a line on the map, then check it out on google earth I struggle to see how you can go wrong

Agree, my concern is that people ditch part 1 relying only on part 2 above.

 

Im a prolific user of google earth and believe if you understand the limitations its significantly better than in years gone by where there was only the map available.

 

Don't believe I ever said that the maps were infalable, at the end of the day in an absolute perfect world they can only represent the world teh way it was on a specific date, change continues as always from that date on.

 

A really good example of that is Gawler airport. We have a new freeway that is almost complete cutting through the airfield as it was. Neither Google, nor the 19Nov09 VNC for Adelaide show that freeway yet, but I'll make a prediction that the VNC will show it long before Google does. Which doesnt excuse the fact that it probably should show it now.

 

Andy

 

 

[Orf]

For students:

 

The best nav aid you can have is Mk 1 eyeballs.

 

If what you see on a map does not appear, ask yourself Why?

 

Check your heading and if correct fly the reciprical back to the starting point.

 

If incorrect ask yourself can I identify where I am? If yes make a correction to get you to your destination. If no, fly the reciprical back to the starting point.

 

If short of fuel then find yourself a place to land ASAP.

 

This technique will get you out of trouble.

 

All pilots of light aircraft should learn to map read and do so even if you have GPS.

 

Here endith the lesson.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Your spot on there Orf.................................................................................

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Unfortunatly, recipricol's won't always work either. The heading held to allow for drift and turned 180 deg's will take you off course if your trying to return to where you started.And remember, the heading you were holding was wrong anyway, otherwise you wouldn't be off course.

 

 

[Exadios]

Unfortunatly, recipricol's won't always work either. The heading held to allow for drift and turned 180 deg's will take you off course if your trying to return to where you started.And remember, the heading you were holding was wrong anyway, otherwise you wouldn't be off course.

I think its the reciprocal track - not heading. And its the track that was being flown - not the one that should have been flown.

 

 

[Orf]

Unfortunatly, recipricol's won't always work either. The heading held to allow for drift and turned 180 deg's will take you off course if your trying to return to where you started.And remember, the heading you were holding was wrong anyway, otherwise you wouldn't be off course.

You are technically correct but we are talking about students who have gone astray. Besides I did not want to make my post too long.If a student has got himself/herself lost I doubt that they could accurately calculate a reciprical course.

Map reading should start by the time the aircraft has reached altitude. It is important to map read from this point on because trying to work out where you are half an hour down the track becomes very difficult.

 

Not only should a line be drawn on a map the timing along that line should also be noted. On take-off, note the time on the map or start a stop watch and that will show where you planned to be at any given time of your journey. It is essential to look ahead on the map so that you can say to yourself I will over fly a road running from 10 oclock to 4 oclock in 1 min or whatever.

 

If you are not where you planned to be something is wrong. Either your flying accuracy, flight planning, heading or speed flown, or wind used in flight planning is wrong. An experienced flyer should be able to determine which element is the cause. I would not expect a student to be able to work it out in the air. A guess is not good enough so turn round and fly home.

 

A reciprical of the course flown will get the student near enough for the to departure field to be recognised. If he can remember the drift factor and can apply it in the correct sense then by all means use it but if there is any doubt, don't go there.

 

If a student gets lost after passing a way point he should return to that way point so that he then knows where he is. Now he can decide whether to set out again on the original planned flight course or fly the reciprical of the course flown to that way point thus returning to the departure field.

 

I have no idea what instructors are teaching these days but the above is what I would teach.

 

In addition to the above, making a radio call as soon as a pilot decides he is lost could help if anyone has equipment to read a bearing on the tranmission - but that is another story.

 

 

I can recall in my early days of flying, a low level navex that I went on I steered 030 instead of 003. The flight was conducted at 200 feet above terrain at an airspeed of 360 knots IAS. All of a sudden I crossed a rail line that was not on the map. On checking the obvious elements where an error could be made I soon was able to work out where I was and set a heading to intercept my original course.

 

Also, map reading is possible over most terrains. I have map read my way across the Nullabor Plains.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Orf, I can tell you what we are teaching these days. 200 feet at 360 kts is certainly not one of them. What jest were you flying in your early days?

 

Map reading should start within 2 miles of departure, not cruising altitude.

 

Holding a recipricol heading that has allowed for substantial drift could put the pilot miles off course. Remembering the drift factor will not help either, it will be completly different, not exactly opposite.

 

Returning to a known waypoint and then a recipricol to the departure point would only work if it was the first waypoint, after that, they would need to be working out recipricols for all the legs, and we have established that recipricols aren't accurate. So now the guys gone from being unsure of his position, to flying around with no plan, hopeing the recipricol theory works out "close enough" to get him home. Not good.

 

 

[Orf]

Orf, I can tell you what we are teaching these days. 200 feet at 360 kts is certainly not one of them. What jest were you flying in your early days?

Military pilots were required to fly under enemy radar which meant getting down close to the deck. At the time of my incident I was flying Vampire aircraft. I was once told by an instructor that if I can fly under your aircraft you are too high. Many-a-time I have seen formations of up to 4 aircraft flying over water leaving jetwash on the water.

Map reading should start within 2 miles of departure, not cruising altitude.

I agree. I did not mean that you start on reaching altitude. Students may find their time is fully occupied while climbing and their ability to navigate as well could be limited. What I was getting at was that by the time they reach cruise altitude map reading should be fully established.

Holding a recipricol heading that has allowed for substantial drift could put the pilot miles off course. Remembering the drift factor will not help either, it will be completly different, not exactly opposite.

Once again I agree but here we have a situation where a student does not know where he is and needs to find a place to put down. What are you teaching for this senario?What I am saying is a reciprical is better that nothing. In my last post I mentioned using the radio. If the student calls in and the info he gives is passed on to the instructor then he should be able to make calculations as to where the student will end up after a reciprical flight. This info could then be passed to the student to see if he can recognise a feature that the instructor has noted in the likely area of the student. Preferable the instructor would get airbourne and hopefully meet the student because he is likely to be disorintated and may find it hard to do things in a rational manner. At least if he can talk to him, a friendly voice can be reassuring. Questions can be asked. What terrain features can you see? Is there a river were you are and what direction does it run? etc. I do not know if direction finding equipment is still installed at manned airports. If it is, why not use it?

 

Returning to a known waypoint and then a recipricol to the departure point would only work if it was the first waypoint, after that, they would need to be working out recipricols for all the legs, and we have established that recipricols aren't accurate. So now the guys gone from being unsure of his position, to flying around with no plan, hopeing the recipricol theory works out "close enough" to get him home. Not good.

You are right but if a student reaches a second way point his navigation skills are reasonable and the chances that he would get lost after that would not be great.Once again we are talking about trying to get the pilot back into a training area where he may recognise his position.

Let's get back to the accident that caused this thread. It seems that the guy just flew on until he ran out of fuel. He was either not briefed on what to do if he got lost or he ignored the briefing. He must have been in a panic to run out of fuel because common sense dictates that is a last resort.

 

I do not know what happened, all I am saying if all else fails fly a reciprical and try to get back too familiar grounds.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Stress...

 

As stress levels increase, performance levels decrease. To the point where even basic descision making is compromised. I have been in the air a few times and listened to pilots broadcast's when they realise they are lost. Two of these stick in my mind.

 

The first guy was lost over the hills south west of wollongong. He had about 1 hour of fuel remaining (at best guess as he had stopped doing fuel calc's)

 

We were in the area at the time and offered assistance.

 

This guy's calls started out quite reasonable, but over about 10 minutes became erratic and lost all form of radio ettiquette. Basically ended up just pushing the PTT and talking.

 

We could hear the stress levels in his voice, he was all but panicking.

 

Syd radar asked him to squawk Ident. He struggled to understand what they meant, and the controller had to describe which gadget in the cockpit he was referring to.

 

When he worked it out, he still couldnt find the Ident button. Most lighty transponders mark the ident button "IDT". So this guy in his state of panic couldn't put 2 and 2 together and work out what they wanted.

 

They then asked him to do 2 left hand orbits.

 

2 minutes of silence, then the controller came on. "did you do the orbits"??

 

He replied, "No, you don't understand, im no where near the harbour bridge."(the harbour has a specified route for sightseeing called scenic 1, which allows you to fly "orbits" near the bridge).

 

After hearing this, i think the controllers started to realise that he was not functioning mentally.

 

And took a new tact. They told him to fly straight, then turn left 90 deg, then left 90deg again, and so on.

 

They eventually picked him up on primary and vectored him to the hume highway, and he was ok.

 

The point is. The stress levels rendered his brain almost incapable of making normal rational descisions. In this state, a forced landing (IMHO) would be impossible.

 

He was on his first solo navex.

 

I may be a bit harsh, but i call this instructor failure.

 

Sending a student, out over tiger country, unprepared, inexperianced and obviously lacking in basic knowledge is criminal.

 

What this guy DID do right, was contact someone. He "confessed". We teach as a last resort, the four C's. Circle, climb, confess, comply. But that only comes after all other strategies have been used.

 

The first thing is to try and work out "where you are NOW". Knowing how long you have been going , on what heading. Start reading from ground to map, as apposed to map to ground.

 

Slow down. Not to near the stall, just back off, so your not getting "lost as fast"

 

Draw a ten mile, by 10 mile box around where you "think you might be". This is the box of probability. DO NOT TURN. If you start to make turns, you will not be able to work out how far along course you are. If you hold the heading, even if it is wrong, you can work out where you "should be". Make an estimate on fuel remaining.

 

You should be somewhere inside that box. Read from ground to map and try and get a fix.

 

Once you have a fix, use the diversion technique and go to the nearest appropriate airfield.

 

Have a coffee, relax, call ya missus and tell her you wont be home early for dinner.

 

But if all this fails, then apply the four c's.

 

Ive gone on too long , so I wont talk about the other lost fella.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Bluey]

How's this for a story

 

This happened to me this week. I'm a moderately experienced pilot who flies around 300 hours a year. I recently flew my trike to Cootamundra from Albion park. This was to be an overnight adventure. My first in fact. Although far from my first cross country flight as I do these quite often and have more experience flying cross country than many much higher hour pilots than myself. Anyway the flight out was a piece of cake. After meeting up with a group of other trike pilots, a great time was had by all. Anyway, the return flight was to attempted at first light the next day in good conditions up to my scheduled stop at Crookwell. After arriving at crookwell, light fog was encountered and a decision was made to continue on to investigate the conditions ahead. As I approached the coast, it was clear that the cloud base was thickening and a descent into albion park was going to be difficult if not impossible. A radio call to Melbourne centre confirmed the extent of the cloud cover over albion park. At this point I hadn't decided to abandon my flight to YWOL. I could see that conditions were considerably better to the NE so I began tracking in that direction. After about 15 minutes, I encountered some large holes in the cloud and decided to decend below the cloud base to have a look and try to determine my exact where abouts. What I found was a sight I never want to encounter ever again. Low cloud and hilly tiger country. I now believe I was somewhere NE of Bowral. There was no way I was going to continue below cloud so I climbed up through the hole and decided that YWOL was not going to happen. I decided to first track NW (300) to clear the tiger country and head in the general direction of Bathurst. Going back to Cootamundra was now not a good idea as it would have been around 90nm away and Bathurst no more than 60nm. The weather Bathurst way looked satisfactory although I could not be too sure as visibility was poor. A call to melbourne centre confirmed no cloud at bathurst at that time. Now clear of tiger an outlanding was called for to establish my exact where abouts and to calculate the correct track and heading to Bathurst. On doing this, I established that I was between 50 and 55 miles exactly south of Bathurst. Based on my ground speed, it would be about 1.2hrs in the head wind. About 30 minutes into the flight it was becoming clear that conditions were rapidly deteriorating to the east. After a few quick calculations, I decided to change course for Orange. This was a place I had been to before and had friends and a hangar to store the trike in. By my reckoning I needed a track of 330 to get to Orange from where I thought I was. Now picture this: lots of turbulence from forming cloud, a head wind of close to 20kts and reducing visibility. Another 30 minutes passes and I'm starting to worry about fuel. I calculated that I would be fine provided I was right about the track I was following and given that the distance to Orange was not more than 100nm which I was sure it wasn't. The reducing visibiltiy made it hard to spot land marks like Mt Canobilis (hard to imagine given its size). What I did spot was Mt Macquarie (I believe). Unfortunately due to stress I believed this was the former. I made a quick decision to call on Melbourne centre to ask for assistance. I asked them to confirm my approximate distance and track to Orange aerodrome. They asked me where I was and I stated that I could see Mt Canobilis to my left at about 10 oclock. Their reply was that I should be just about at Orange. I thought thats great but where's the airport? I knew from my one previous flight to orange that it was about 10km SE of orange. Anyway, 10 minutes later I began to see a large town at my 12 oclock. After much communication with Melbourne centre I decided it must have been Orange and therefore must have missed the airport. Now stress levels were rising. On reaching the town I orbited and requested a track to the airport. 165 was the reply and off I went. 5 minutes later and 10miles out of town no airport. More stress!!! Track back to the town. On the way back I informed melbourne centre that I would be outlanding. I had identified a number of large paddocks that might be suitable. about this time came all the questions, how many onboard? how much fuel remaining (second time)? do you have a transponder? do you have an emergency beacon? what is your mobile phone number? I couldn't remember the number (truth is I often forget it even when I'm not flying). The rex pilot out of Orange who was helping out due to communication difficulties with melbourne centre asked if I had landed yet. My reply was: "no, I am surveying the fields for suitability for landing". The understanding was that I would report back after touching down. At this point, Rex informed me that Melbourne centre wanted me to switch on my beacon! I looked at my PLB that was dangling around my neck and thought: I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS! Just then I heard a chopper call at orange and thought heres an opening. I politely and as calmly as I could asked the pilot if they would do me a big favour by flying out to orange so I could follow them back to the strip. They agreed and away they went. 5 minutes passed and nothing appeared. It was at this point that I realised that I wasn't at orange. I informed the chopper and Melbourne centre that I was going to resume my original track of 330. Regular communication continued until the airstrip appeared on my nose about 15minutes later. I landed at Orange on runway 04 into a northerly of about 15kts with police a few minutes away to ask me questions and file a report. It turns out that the attempt to outland caused a great deal of anxiety in the minds of melbourne centre and an emergency was declared. Make no mistake, I was stressed, but I feel I still had enough control to make reasonable decisions. To make matters worse, a news crew also showed up as they were monitoring the developing situation too but left when I gave them a brief explanation and refused to stand in front of a camera.

 

That flight is one that I want to forget. Having said that, I think I learnt a great deal from it. Thankfully it ended well and hopefully the restless nights will end soon.

 

The trike spent two nights in the trike hangar at Orange, I caught a connecting flight out the same day (another good reason for diverting to orange) and drove back this morning to fly the trike back to YWOL. An uneventful flight! Tomorrow I am getting a flight into Orange to pick up the car.

 

Bluey.

 

 

[Tomo]

Bluey, thanks so much for sharing.

 

That also highlights so much how helpful our ATC guys are. If you have a legit reason for it, they will go to great lengths to help you out. :thumb_up:

 

 

[Orf]

Nice one, Bluey. Glad you made it.

 

In my day as a fighter pilot it was the norm for pilots to keep a mental plot of where they were. so that at any time they could say with some surety their position. It was surprising how accurate mental DR can be.

 

The only nav aid we had was a radio compass which was handy except when there were thunderstorms around. The needle always pointed to a thunder head.

 

Military airfields had a direction finding capability which showed the bearing from the airfield of a radio transmission. Skills were honed to the extent that one could be vectored over the base at 20,000 feet, turned onto an outbound heading and a descend commenced. On reaching 14,000 a left hand rate one turn onto the runway heading would bring one out in line with that runway at about 8,000 feet. The DF controller would then give corrections if the bearing was not the same as the runway heading. A straight in approach would be made hoping to break cloud by 2000 feet.

 

It paid to have a good DF controller and be able to accurately fly by instruments.

 

Later in my flying career ground radar was introduced. It was known as GCA - Ground Control Radar. A good operator would talk you down the glide scope to a height of 200 feet then say, look ahead and land. On more than one occasion I said keep talking because I could not see the runway.

 

Nothing to do with navigation but I remember one night I was doing an asymetric GCA landing in a Meteor (twin jet) and I was talked down to 200 feet and then told to overshoot because there was an aircraft lined up on the runway. Minimum height for an asymatric overshoot was 600 feet so I was committed to land. It was a matter of putting on enough power so that I could overfly the aircraft on the runway while still keeping control of the aircraft. As I passed over the aircraft I saw that it was a TAA DC3.

 

I guess the skipper got quite a shock to see a jet overfly at about 10 feet!