Not a good weekend

[pudestcon]

Thanks for your post Bluey and I'm glad you made it - probably all that experience came back to help you even though you were stressed. It's posts like yours that help us low time wannabees get our heads around what is required.

 

Good one:thumb_up:

 

Pud

 

 

[Orf]

Thanks for your post Bluey and I'm glad you made it - probably all that experience came back to help you even though you were stressed. It's posts like yours that help us low time wannabees get our heads around what is required.

The lesson that Bluey gives us is that when in trouble ask for help.Talking to someone tends to lessen panic and now there are two or more people trying to solve the problem.

In this day and age all flyers should carry a GPS of some sort. However, if used as the major nav aid back it up with map reading.

 

Accidents are usually caused by 3 things going wrong. An example for getting lost can be GPS failure, weather and lack of proper planning - 3 things.

 

Bluey had the advantage that he recognised that he was starting to panic. He took the first step by handing over some of the decision making to someone else who should know what they are doing.

 

If you analyse some of the tales of people getting lost you can see that lack of planning is usually in there somewhere. I do not necessarily mean flight planning although that must be a consideration. Lack of planning also covers knowing how to operate all aircraft systems and what they do - responder, Eperb, radio etc. What a helper may ask you to do to identify yourself - turns, sqawking etc.

 

A flying instructor is responsible for insuring a student knows procedures and aircraft systems before letting them disappear over the horizon. Too many pilots think that once they go solo that that is the end of learning. It is not. There is much more to learn. A flyer should learn something every time they get airbourne even if it is how to land at the right speed at a predestined spot on the runway. When you cease to learn think hard about giving up flying.

 

 

[blueshed]

Great Thread

 

Hi Guy's

 

have just read this thread this morning, Great teaching from many of you, Orf's experience is very engaging, a Meteor, Wow.

 

Many other's are suggesting that it is mostly up to the instructor to supply all required information to the Student. Just remember we are also Human and in some cases are not perfect, I am the first to admit this!

 

After flying with many different students on Nav's it is very easy to determine which students have been doing their study! With their attitudes intact.

 

This Web site is such a great tool for sharing information and asking question's. When I started as a student we spent our social net working at the Bar after the day's flying, as with this site there was a great wealth of information. I still am learning from this form of social net working, as well as from the flying I do and also learn from my student's.

 

Happy Flying Guy

 

 

[Orf]

Many other's are suggesting that it is mostly up to the instructor to supply all required information to the Student. Just remember we are also Human and in some cases are not perfect, I am the first to admit this!

I think it would be fair to say that the instructor should ensure the student has sufficient knowledge to safely undertake a flying exercise, be it a navex or ciruits and bumps.Of course we all make mistakes occasionally the important thing is don't make fatal mistakes.

Even experienced pilots should continue their training and brushing up on their skills.

 

How many readers of this post for no good reason suddenly pull off power and set in motion a practice forced landing? You should you know. Familiarity with a procedure will increase the skill necessary to carry out a forced landing for real. It will also reduce panic. If the engine does cuts out requiring a forced landing, say to yourself, I can land safely I have done it many times before. Practise makes perfect.

 

Do not limit practicing procedures to forced landings, all aspects of flying should get a refresher every now and again.

 

Try covering your GPS during a navex, a flapless landing, short field landings, airborne fire drill, the list goes on. It is your safety we are talking about.

 

After flying with many different students on Nav's it is very easy to determine which students have been doing their study! With their attitudes intact.

Quite correct and you should be able to see who will make a good pilot or be a danger to himself and others. That is one of the skills of an instructor.

When I started as a student we spent our social net working at the Bar after the day's flying, as with this site there was a great wealth of information.

Most people are reluctant to admit making mistakes. Therefore the bar is probably the best classroom you can have because after a beer or two people are more willing to say what went wrong on their flight. I am just getting back into flying and after each flight I go home and think long and hard about what I did right, what I did wrong and what I could do better.

Several people have asked me when am I going solo. My reply is, I don't want to go solo. I want an instructor or experienced pilot there to tell me if I go wrong, otherwisw I would never know.

 

After I buy my own aircraft I will go solo but in the meantime learn, learn, learn.

 

By the way, I have over 2400 hours flying single and multi engined aircraft both jet and piston.

 

 

[Spriteah]

Well done Bluey and thanks for sharing. I'm sure every pilot learnt something from your post. One item I would like to comment on is the activation of the beacon that I pressume you did not do.

 

Melbourne would of been hoping you had a GPS enabled beacon. And if so after activation they would have been able to establish your exact position in minutes and then be able to give you a track to safety and guide you in.

 

With that in mind anyone considering the purchase of a beacon I strongly encourage you to spend the extra money and get a GPS model.

 

Great story and safe flying

 

Jim Tatlock.

 

 

[Bluey]

Hi Everyone;

 

Well the trike and car are now finally back home. The experience is definitely one I have learnt a great deal from. For one, ask for help as soon as you think you need it and the area frequency is the one we all need to be monitoring at all times when away from any ctaf. In my case, the initial call was one out of precaution. It turned into an emergency once I incorrectly identified a land mark. It was just lucky for me that I was on the correct course in the first place that I got to my destination at all. I figured that if I had been off course more than a few miles then I could have flown past both the airport and Orange without ever seeing them in the poor visibility conditions. Up till that flight I had done it all without an aviation grade GPS. That is going to change as a garmin 296 is now on my shopping list.

 

When Melbourne centre asked me to turn on my plb (gps equiped) they were thinking the worst. It didn't occur to me at the time as I assumed that it was their way of finding me. I don't think that most aviators are aware of what trikes can do as far as outlanding is concerned. Having said that, I must make it clear that I think, that outlanding, even in a trike, especially under duress is the most dangerous thing any pilot can do. It's for this reason that I rarely do it and only did it during my experience out of complete nescessity to establish my location more accurately. While a gps would have avoided this mid air drama, all pilots must practice their map reading skills and ensure they carry the necessary maps for any journey at all times just in case the gps packs it in. In my case, flying trikes gives you options three axis aircraft do not have. At any time in my adventure, I could have chosen any of a number of outlanding options. This fact kept me from falling to pieces and concentrating on the task at hand. At the time the call to turn on my plb came I was surveying a nice large paddock next to a service road and within 1/2 a mile of the town (Blayney). I would have landed (safely I hope) and walked over to the road and hailed someone and asked them where I was. Gone to my map and plotted a new course for the airport.

 

Having the advantage of hindsight, I could have just kept going for another 15 miles and found the airport on my nose. The fact is, I wasn't sure at the time that I had gotten it right. After all, I had spent nearly 5 hours in the air with just one break, changed course three times and spent most of the flight in a significant head wind. Fatigue from the considerable turbulence was building and this was making thinking clearly a challenge. Bottom line, would I do it all the same way again? Well apart from choosing a bigger paddock than the one I outlanded in then yes yes yes!!! I would ask for help again if ever faced with any kind of uncertainty on any future flight. Having said all that, the next time the forecast says that conditions will be fine in the morning with late rain predicted I will just stay at my location and do some fun local flying for the day. Wait out the rain and fly home a few days later when the forecast calls for a fine day.

 

Another important fact that I had going for me is that although I only needed around half a tank of fuel for a safe return flight, I made sure that I filled the tank to the very top just in case I had to divert. So at no time did I assume that it would be an uneventful flight. The point is: Cross country flight takes you out of your comfort zone and you need to plan for the unexpected. Having plenty of fuel gives you the chance to exercise your options. I hope my experience and analysis of it has been useful to others.

 

Regards: Bluey.

 

 

[Mc Guyver]

Hi Bluey,

 

Excellent work on sharing the story and demonstrating to others to talk about problems. Hangar talk is invaluable!

 

It could have been a different story flying a 582 with far less endurance :-)

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Hi Bluey,

 

That's great to hear that you made it somewhere and am still here to tell the story. I've had GPS's fail on two occasions while flying trikes x-country but fortunately had other navigation means I could revert to in both instances.

 

While we can't always rely on GPS's, it's nice to know that if we do encounter low cloud blocking our way there's a "Find Nearest" button to list distance and bearing to the 20 or so nearest airports. Slarti's converted Automotive units can do it too but it's not the same single press of a button as on a Garmin 296. In favour of Slarti's units though his list of Australian airstrip waypoints is more comprehensive than the Jeppesen database in the Garmin.

 

I was also flying my trike out of Cootamundra on Friday & Saturday on the Easter weekend as a base for flying to Temora and some other flying we did. Just wondering if we met at Cootamundra. . .

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Good luck shopping for a 296; they don't make 'em anymore!

 

If you love doing traditional navigation and just want a GPS to confirm or get you out of trouble, a $200 Garmin eTrex Legend will do that just as well as a $1600 aviation GPS.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

In favour of Slarti's units though his list of Australian airstrip waypoints is more comprehensive than the Jeppesen database in the Garmin.

I don't own a 296, but it would surprise me if it wasn't easy to add your own airfields from the safe file as Slarti uses, which most likely is almost identical to the one I use in my hiking GPS.

 

 

[Bluey]

Hi Glen;

 

I don't think we met, I flew into cootamundra from Wollongong on Monday and departed Tuesday.

 

Bluey

 

 

[Orf]

Although slightly off topic GPS is an important nav aid.

 

As a backup for a failed unit is there an Iphone that has GPS that can give current position?

 

I have heard that an Iphone is handy for getting weather and other airfield info.

 

I have not bought one as yet but a GPS featured one would, or should I say could, be handy.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

I don't own a 296, but it would surprise me if it wasn't easy to add your own airfields from the safe file as Slarti uses, which most likely is almost identical to the one I use in my hiking GPS.

That would be an interesting option to explore - trying to import Slarti's waypoints into my Garmin 296, though I don't recall what the maximum number of user waypoints is that the 296 can store I suspect Slarti's might be too many.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

One day for whatever reason the GPS system is going to go down. so all well and good to have a simple backup but try staying on top of your map skills.

 

You should always have a chart with your track marked on it. Do not rely on a little box of tricks as main means of nav.

 

ozzie

 

 

[Tracktop]

In this day and age and the price of a GPS being sub $100 surely everyone should carry at least one if not more.

 

Easy to say get your nav right but even a car GPS would have told Bluey where he was and more than likely averted the unneeded attention to our sport.

 

His map etc wasn't sufficient obviously, as the way I read his story he had no or very limited ground visibility and certainly not 4/8.

 

My guess is also, Map reading, nav recalcs, keeping DR checks etc under the conditions he was in ( turbulence, open cockpit, limited / no ground reference, probably gloved hands, stressed) would have been quite difficult to say the least.

 

I am not at all suggesting that normal nav practices should be abandoned just to also make use of the available, cheap and reliable technology to supplement your systems.

 

Ozzie I know you won't like this tact but averting attention by the media / authorities where possible ( and with a cheap and light:big_grin: solution) can only help with keeping our regs to a minimum.

 

My thoughts are NO ONE should be flying cross country without some sort of working GPS backup.

 

I would even go so far as to say , one should be included in your kit for XC tests - turned off but available if the student does get lost ( which they shouldn't )

 

 

[ahlocks]

..I would even go so far as to say , one should be included in your kit for XC tests - turned off but available if the student does get lost ( which they shouldn't )

I'll expand that to include that the GPS is turned on, but the display is obscured by a tamper evident covering. Use the GPS during the nav Ex, the tamper evident seal gets broken and you fail the test.

 

Why? The GPS records the flight track for post flight review or archiving and it is available for immediate use if the student gets absolutely lost. I'd rather have someone fail the test and have to do it again, than have them park it into trees or worse.

 

Cheers!

 

 

[Orf]

Thanks BlackRod, I now have a lead as to which way to go Iphone wise and yes GPS skills should be taught as part of a flying licence.

 

You are correct ozzie in saying that pilots should stay on top of map reading skills. The basics never change and map reading is one of those basics.

 

Once a student can navigate by map reading he should be taught how to use a GPS. This also applies to any other equipment that is fitted to aircraft. What is the good of having equipment in an aircraft if the pilot does not know how to use it.

 

Any aircraft capable of having a GPS system installed should have it installed. If and aircraft is incapable then a hand held devise should be mandatory.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Bluey,I take my hat off to you guys in Trikes. I don't know how you could possibly navigate with a map, rule and protractor in an open cockpit in smooth air let alone turbulence. How the hell do you plot a new heading in turbulence, you can't hold the bar between your legs while you work it out. You must have been exhausted just hanging on to the bar without trying to do anything else.

Hi David,

 

It's true that it's just not practical to have loose items like rulers and protractors in an open cockpit enviroment, but we can at least have access to maps and ERSA pages in our kneeboards which can still be glanced even while the control bar is going the full 12 rounds.:black_eye:

 

There are knee-boards in the Clear-Prop shop, though I use the one from Punkinhead.

 

Accessories Cont..

 

I have even slipped my Slarti-aviation-converted-automotive-GPS into the front sleeve as a backup GPS on one occasion.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Saw a Garmin advertised in sport pilot mag last month. with a quick touch of the screen it goes from road to air mode. pretty trick, saves buying two.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Wow bluey. What a story. Im very familiar with the country you were over and I would not like to be in the situation you were in.

 

Its great that you have shared the story openly so we can all learn from it.

 

I am a bit confused on a few things.

 

Was Mittagong not an option for you as you were NE of bowral, mittagong should have been behind you, back towards the nice air?

 

Or the oaks? Or even turning back to crrokwell?

 

You also said you outlanded to confirm your position. What was the thinking behind getting airbourne again while the WX was clearly deteriorating around you?. Not being critical, just want to know what was going through your head at the time?

 

I reckon a lot of people come unstuck because they don't see "turning back" as an option. I have a saying that im always drumming into to people. Never let the door shut behind you.

 

Good job, and thanx for the story:thumb_up:

 

 

[Bluey]

Hi;

 

Sorry, my mistake, not NE of Bowral but NW of it. The weather was over the ranges to the East. I tracked Nw of the Weather to leave it behind me. From the air the NW was still quite good relativley clear air with the start of a cloud build up. So I headed in the general direction of much better weather. The outlanding was done just clear of the ranges near a house in a smooth paddock. Crookwell had fog over the landing strip at the time I flew over and was near the edge of building cloud. I thought that it probably would have been below cloud if I had gone back that way. When I finally aborted my attempt to YWOL I was much closer to Bathurst and Orange than Cootamundra which could also have been an option. Mittagong was definitely below cloud.

 

Bluey

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ok Bluey, that makes a bit more sence.

 

Alot of people have talked about the lessons learned from yours and other guys experiances. Calling ATC, carrying a GPS (im not in this school of thought however), but what I would like to hear from you is the biggest and simplest lesson of all.

 

It all started when you took off into building wx.

 

Very soon after that the door closed behind you (from what i can gather). With no back door to escape through our only option is forward. That region is well known for its fast building and blanketting cloud cover, thats whay its given as a critical location in the area forcast. The geography and its proximity to the coast make it a perfect cloud building factory.

 

From your account (which I thank you for again) your first mistake was the biggest one. You took off. Crookwell is 15 miles north east of golbourn, over quite reasonable country, especially for a trike.

 

I know in hindsight we have 20/20 vision, and its easy for me to say sitting here in my warm armchair, but self evaluation and appraisal is a key point to good airmanship. I have made a few mistakes in the past on par and even worse then your story, as have many others, fortunatly you and I survived 'ourselv's' and can talk about it. Others have not been so lucky.

 

I have a very firm belief, its very rarely stick and rudder skills that kill pilots in our sport, its almost ALWAYS descisions that kill us. Sometimes its the simplist descision of all, the descision weather or not to takeoff.

 

Cheers and thanx again for the story.:thumb_up:

 

 

[Bluey]

Hi, While the conditions at Crookwell were deteriorating, west of Crookwell was still in good conditions. When I left Cootamundra the weather was very good for flying. It was only to the east of Crookwell that all the weather was found. Orange and Bathurst were still in reasonable weather too. If at any time the conditions ahead deteriorated to a point I considered dangerous, I would have outlanded in one of the many large paddocks below me and tied the trike down, set up a tent and waited it out for a few days if needed. My call to ATC was initially as a precaution only. I became concerned when I was told I may have overshot my destination. This of course proved false as I had incorrectly identified a major landmark. The lesson for me here is: Ask for help as soon as you think you need it and go back to your starting point as soon as you feel unsure of your destination and the weather ahead rather than diverting to a new location you aren't 100% sure of. Oh, and make sure you carry a decent GPS as well as maps.

 

Bluey.

 

 

[hiperlight]

At the risk of being pedantic, the last time I was at Crookwell airstrip, it was north-west of Goulburn. With a density altitude of around 3000 feet, the hill off the north-western end and Crookwell's own dedicated cloud, operations there could be interesting.

 

Bruce

 

 

[Bluey]

From my experience, Crookwell is much less likely to be cloudy than Goulburn. I can usually see Goulburn from the air near Crookwell and I usually am glad I chose to go the Crookwell route instead. If Goulburn is your preferred route then the strip at Marulin will often be a landing spot until the cloud clears at Goulburn.

 

Bluey.