Gliders at Caboolture

[Exadios]

Nothing like an instructor pulling power off when you are a bit out on downwind and you realise you are too far too make it back to the strip. I swear first time he did that to me my next circuit was half the distance ;)

We fly our tug circuits inside the glider circuits - the way it should be. Given that gliders invariably have a better glide ratio than powered planes it seems to me that all powered circuits should be inside the glider circuit.

 

 

[turboplanner]

We fly our tug circuits inside the glider circuits - the way it should be. Given that gliders invariably have a better glide ratio than powered planes it seems to me that all powered circuits should be inside the glider circuit.

The danger of having local arrangements, is that an inbound touring aircraft, GA or Rec flying a conventional circuit doesn't know this and a dangerous situation may develop.

 

 

[Exadios]

The danger of having local arrangements, is that an inbound touring aircraft, GA or Rec flying a conventional circuit doesn't know this and a dangerous situation may develop.

As I said it is not a local arrangement. I was taught to remain within gliding distance of the strip and so where others. The only people who fly wide (which is what I presume you mean by "conventional") circuits are the training flights from Jandakot. If they lose their fan then they are in a paddock and, since neither the student or the instructor know how to land in paddocks, they are dead. That is the dangerous situation that has already developed.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

We fly our tug circuits inside the glider circuits

Hmm Tug circuits....wouldnt that just be the last orbit in a spiral dive that might or might not happen to intersect one of the more traditional legs of the active circuit :big_grin:

 

Tug imperatives

 

1) Get em up as quick as possible

 

2) Get back even quicker

 

3) repeat

 

 

[turboplanner]

Exadios, we are taking "wide" as in incompetently wide here, just the standard circuit that a well trained, competent touring aircraft would do.

 

We have roughly about 16,000 combined GA/RA pilots, so what you are describing would create the sort of reaction we all saw from Qwerty, which is reason for some concern.

 

 

[Exadios]

Hmm Tug circuits....wouldnt that just be the last orbit in a spiral dive that might or might not happen to intersect one of the more traditional legs of the active circuit :big_grin:Tug imperatives

 

1) Get em up as quick as possible

 

2) Get back even quicker

 

3) repeat

A traditional circuit is one within gliding range of the strip. These other circuits you are fond of are a recent development. I do not know why you guys are taught to do a scenic tour before you land - but it is wrong. The idea of landing is to get onto the strip quickly and safely.

 

 

[Tomo]

Gliders are supposed to do circuits 'inside' the normal circuit anyway, Look in the CASA circuit guide. I had a quick glance at it the other day, and from what I gather that is what's meant to happen. Also when a tug returns he is basically classed as a glider, so would probably land inside as well. Remember if you are a glider pilot in a competition and you're number 45 in the line up, you want the tugs to be as quick as possible, not doing a ten minute circuit.

 

Also what does that double cross marker mean? Means Glider operations, so look out and watch out! The marker was made for a purpose, if gliders operated normally it wouldn't have been necessary to have one.

 

A glider doesn't have a engine, so once they are in the circuit area they have to alter everything to suit that "one only" landing, what happens to us when we encounter sink? add power. In a glider you have to change circuit size to suit... In a glider everything centers around the atmospheric conditions, in a powered machine we have the ability to overcome a lot of those things.

 

On a good day, a tug can do about 10 tows an hour, so that is every six minutes...... try adding a normal circuit to that.

 

BTW These are my opinions, and I haven't been to Caboolture to see what it is like, but I've done a bit of glider helping in comps and what not, so I can see the factors of being quick and efficient, generally powered aircraft should always giveway to glider tows and gliders, same as balloons. Also Glider pilots don't tend to be worried about flying near other aircraft, remember there can be up to six gliders in a 'gaggle' thermaling in the same thermal at the same time.

 

Hope that might clear it up a bit.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Hmm Tug circuits....wouldnt that just be the last orbit in a spiral dive that might or might not happen to intersect one of the more traditional legs of the active circuit :big_grin:Tug imperatives

 

1) Get em up as quick as possible

 

2) Get back even quicker

 

3) repeat

A great description Surely you meant parachute drop planes though ?

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[turboplanner]

I can save about $40.00 per sesssion if I peel off the way I'd like too, crowd the strip on downwind and do a defence type semi circle approach.

 

So, can I do the same as the tugs, for the same reasons?

 

 

[shags_j]

I can save about $40.00 per sesssion if I peel off the way I'd like too, crowd the strip on downwind and do a defence type semi circle approach.So, can I do the same as the tugs, for the same reasons?

Don't want to hijack but: defence semi circle? My first training was to do a semi circle at archerfield. I thought it strange when the RA guys at ycab tought me rectangle circuits.

 

 

[Tomo]

So, can I do the same as the tugs, for the same reasons?

You have an engine failure and are gliding in.... Yes you can...

 

 

 

[facthunter]

TUG priority.

 

Th engine failure case is clear. The tug priority would seem to be a "wish" rather than a reality. Nev.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Glider ops

 

Flew into narromine last Wednesday to be greeted with 35 gliders on active runway 11. Notams, so knew they were there but did not expect them to be all lined up on the active runway. They had 3 tugs operating on the paralel grass strip for take offs. I used the cross wind strip 04 after talking to one of the tug pilots who held for me.

 

Would have been interesting if the Xwind was near max and fuel low. Guess that Dubbo would have been my only option.

 

 

[Exadios]

Flew into narromine last Wednesday to be greeted with 35 gliders on active runway 11. Notams, so knew they were there but did not expect them to be all lined up on the active runway. They had 3 tugs operating on the paralel grass strip for take offs. I used the cross wind strip 04 after talking to one of the tug pilots who held for me. Would have been interesting if the Xwind was near max and fuel low. Guess that Dubbo would have been my only option.

Our policy is to clear the gliders off the runway when we hear an aircraft enter the CTAF and announce that they intent to land. The situation is clear - you should not have been forced to use a cross wind strip.

 

Also when we hear a new aircraft on the CTAF we make the announcement: "<call sign or 'Narrogin traffic'> this is Narrogin base, be advised that gliding operations are in progress and we are using runway <nn>". This allows the aircraft to declare their intentions if they need to.

 

I think safty and courtesy require all gliding clubs to addopt these sort of policies.

 

 

[Exadios]

Th engine failure case is clear. The tug priority would seem to be a "wish" rather than a reality. Nev.

I've never heard of "tug priority" before. I do not think it exists.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Exadios,

 

Sounds like sense to me but how do you shift 35 odd gliders from the runway when they are lined up for competition flying? Not a goer I think.

 

I would have been more comfortable if the gliders were lined up for the tug on the side of the runway, space permitting.

 

Just seemed to me to be a dangerous situation if the alternative runway was u/s for whatever reason.

 

Notams did not mention that any runway would be not available. With 35 odd gliders you would think that they could have notified of a possible delay for the active runway and I could have planned around this. i was there for over an hour and they were still tugging when I left.

 

I have no problems with the gliding guys, just the safety issue in taking over the whole runway for a couple of hours or so.

 

 

[Tomo]

I've never heard of "tug priority" before. I do not think it exists.

True, I wasn't really implying 'tug priority' though... just the use of smaller circuits, or let downs in the center of normal circuits.

 

 

[Exadios]

Exadios,Sounds like sense to me but how do you shift 35 odd gliders from the runway when they are lined up for competition flying? Not a goer I think.

 

I would have been more comfortable if the gliders were lined up for the tug on the side of the runway, space permitting.

 

Just seemed to me to be a dangerous situation if the alternative runway was u/s for whatever reason.

 

Notams did not mention that any runway would be not available. With 35 odd gliders you would think that they could have notified of a possible delay for the active runway and I could have planned around this. i was there for over an hour and they were still tugging when I left.

 

I have no problems with the gliding guys, just the safety issue in taking over the whole runway for a couple of hours or so.

I'm my experience it is not possible to simultaneously launch 35 gliders with 3 tugs. So there should not have been 35 gliders on the strip.

 

If it where a competition I image that many of the gliders where open class with water on. These need to take off from the center of the strip. With 3 tugs the worst case is 3 gliders on the strip at the same time. Standard class gliders usually do not need to be on the strip at all to take off. They can be launched from the side by the tug pulling them onto the strip.

 

It is the ground crew's (and, ultimately, the CFI's) resposibility that there are no more gliders on the strip than necessary, and, in any event, no more than they can clear off the strip quickly.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Wow somebody stirred up the hornets nest here! It is some time since I flew gliders at Caboolture, but when I did, the rule was that the gliders landed on the grass beside the working strip. If the wind changed, the pie cart was moved because it is obviously not sensible to work a contra direction nor to land down wind. In my experience, gliders are more tolerant of cross wind than powered planes. Quite often whilst operating out of Jondaryan (west of Toowoomba) we were limited by the crosswind rating of the tug, not the gliders. Caboolture is indeed a busy place on week ends. We desperately need more places to operate all forms of recreational aviation from. We also need to present a united front as recreational aviators, no matter whether we have motors or not. Please take the time to drop into the "other camp" and have a chat. It will break down the barriers and also aid understanding, which will eventually lead to less conflict in the air, and better safety for all. A few words spoken politely is not too much to ask. I'm not just preaching to the power pilots, the glider folk should visit the power club. It would be great if the gliding club would host a introductory flite program for power pilots so they could empathise with our needs, and also if the power flying schools could do the same for glider pilots. As an example, the Darling Downs Soaring Club used to occassionally host a BBQ for the Oakey Air Base staff and take them for TIF's for free just to let them know how we operated. It broke down the barriers. After all we were operating in a military control area and on week days could not fly without their permission.

 

I'm not excusing the obviously unprofessional behaviour of some Caboolture GC pilots. Just looking for a positive spin.

 

PeterT

 

 

[turboplanner]

Given what Qwerty faced when he arrived, I'd love to hear what the glider guys who were covering the area at the time might have to say, reading about it, if the facts were true they are just giving their sport a bad name.

 

 

[skydog]

Bacchus Marsh

 

I`m flying based at Bacchus Marsh where 3 Gliding clubs operate.Geelong, Beaufort and The Victorian Gliding club.

 

Last weekend the cloud base was low about 2500` so the glider pilots were basically going up to cloud base then quickly down into the circuit for "circuit training" I guess.

 

I was doing some circuits and it was as busy as hell as I dodged , 2 tug planes and up to 4 gliders in and near the circuit but they were all great on the radio and acknowledged me and made me aware of where they were everytime.

 

They are bloody fast in the circuit coming downwind low and close in and final is relatively high and short with those magnificent air brakes dropping them down to the strip very quickly & efficiently.

 

They operated on the grass left and right 95% of the time and land short of the displaced threshold where us not so good power pilots have to land.So do the 2 tug planes which frees up the main runway for us turkeys.

 

I was frantic keeping up with the situational awareness and had 2 go rounds out of about 12 circuits but I think it makes you a better pilot at the end of the day.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

I'm my experience it is not possible to simultaneously launch 35 gliders with 3 tugs. So there should not have been 35 gliders on the strip.If it where a competition I image that many of the gliders where open class with water on. These need to take off from the center of the strip. With 3 tugs the worst case is 3 gliders on the strip at the same time. Standard class gliders usually do not need to be on the strip at all to take off. They can be launched from the side by the tug pulling them onto the strip.

 

It is the ground crew's (and, ultimately, the CFI's) resposibility that there are no more gliders on the strip than necessary, and, in any event, no more than they can clear off the strip quickly.

Perhaps I did'nt make myself clear.

 

The 35 gliders were lined up single file near the down wind end on the bitumen runway 29 facing downwind and were then tugged to the parallel grass trip 11 which effectively put 11/29 u/s

 

Its a mile or so from the tie down area so I imagine that these runways would be out of action anyway due to the towing process to get the gliders to the tugs.

 

In my view NOTAMS should have mentioned that 11/29 may be out of commission from X time to X time if they were aware of the wind forecast direction before hand.

 

I am not a knocker, just surprised to find a runway completly blocked on arrival and forced to use the cross wind strip.

 

 

[Exadios]

Perhaps I did'nt make myself clear.The 35 gliders were lined up single file near the down wind end on the bitumen runway 29 facing downwind and were then tugged to the parallel grass trip 11 which effectively put 11/29 u/s

Its a mile or so from the tie down area so I imagine that these runways would be out of action anyway due to the towing process to get the gliders to the tugs.

 

In my view NOTAMS should have mentioned that 11/29 may be out of commission from X time to X time if they were aware of the wind forecast direction before hand.

 

I am not a knocker, just surprised to find a runway completly blocked on arrival and forced to use the cross wind strip.

Thanks for the clarification. But I do not think it changes my previous point. Essentially the gliders were backtracking on the runway and, just with a power plane, they can only enter the runway when there is no traffic landing or taking off.

 

I think the NOTAMs assume that pilots and ground crew are going to do the right thing.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Never had a problem with gliders...we have had comps at Dalby where they have lined up the first batch on the duty runway and subsequently launched about seventy or so all up. On occassions have had to depart on business at the same time, fairly simple to talk to them and let them know then depart away from where they are fighting to climb upwards. Most of the time I choose not to make it an issue and sit back and watch the launchings and just enjoy another aspect of aviation. :big_grin:

 

 

[Tomo]

Seems things are going pretty well there now. Not sure if it's changed or anything, but It must have because I had no trouble the other day talking to and working out what's where. The glider pilots were very polite, and if they had to for some reason land downwind, or on a non active runway. They went to a lot of effort to make sure everyone understood.

 

It is as busy as heck still, but was ok, though some pilots still love their navex downwinds... but, you just have to grin and bare it! :big_grin:

 

I think the 3rd of June changes were a great thing as it has cut the radio down a lot, and certainly makes you more aware, I believe, of your surroundings. Might sound funny, but it really has. Because people now think about if they should make a call or not, rather than just, "oh well I guess I better". Well I know I have.

 

Situational awareness has gone up a lot me thinks.

 

Happy flying!