Cloud Dodging

[Tonym]

Under 3000' clear of cloud. That is legal, but an IFR flight letting down will not know what level the bottom of the cloud is and will let down through it legally. If you happen to be clear of his cloud as he comes out, just think about it. He is doing 120kts say and is suddenly out of cloud, looking for an airstrip ahead, and where are you?

When I was discussing the experience with the instructor afterwards, he said the same thing. Apart from the descent through the hole, I wasn't flying in a place where someone would have flown out of the clouds and into my path. I presume its not unreasonable to expect that someone flying within a few miles of an aeorodrome, in cloud, and at around 3000' would radio his/her position.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

JG, The good old Cessna Pilot Operating Handbook (POH) has instrustions for descent through cloud if caught. I copied it and it's in the plane. Can't say I've tried it, so don't know if it would work or not. I have heard of blokes putting into a stall and descending, but a slip would be more controllable I would think.

 

From memory the POH basically says trim the aircraft, and reduce power for a slow steady descent, maintain heading with small rudder imputs , hands off the yoke and keep the ball centered. No substitute for an artifical horizon when you need it, but they are so costly.

 

I did get caught on top once, and was very lucky when a big hole opened up. Sort of like almost running out of fuel, you'll only get caught once if your smart..................................................

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Mad Dave]

I reckon unless you are IFR rated in an IFR a/c DON'T get into a situation where you will be stuck over 8/8 cloud. There is nothing wrong with being on top, as long as you are sensible about it, and have at least one escape avenue.

 

 

[Ultralights]

Most IFR flight tend to follow set routes between airports and navaids. So keep away from ndb and vor or gnav approach areas, ndb or vor stations or routes marked in the Erc/low/high charts and you minimise the risk of an aircraft descending out of cloud on top of you.

 

 

[Kev]

...and in sight of the surface.

 

Safe Flying Kev

 

Whoops, missed two pages out there. It's already covered.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

I go on top frequently but I keep a close eye on the holes. If the holes start to close or if they become smaller as I travel, I get below pretty smartly while there is a hole to use. I did go over 8/8 once when I knew that it was clear at my destination. It wasn't an unduly disturbing experience. I expect my engine to run, if I didn't, I wouldn't get airborne in the thing.

 

On the subject of letting down through cloud, first of all, I make sure that I never have to. But I have tried the trim and rudder method while watching the ball and I was not comfortable with the result. One day though, I flew across Tas with my head down using only my instruments, this included a straight in approach at Georgetown down to 500' and it was fine. I guess if I ever did get cought I would do the instrument thing.

 

BTW I was using the "six pac" page on my Garmin 296. It doesn't have an AH but it does have a turn indicator persented as an AH and I found it to be adequate.

 

There are only two things in the world that frighten me...Cloud and powerlines and I stay the hell away from them both.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

Under 3000' clear of cloud. That is legal, but an IFR flight letting down will not know what level the bottom of the cloud is and will let down through it legally. If you happen to be clear of his cloud as he comes out, just think about it. He is doing 120kts say and is suddenly out of cloud, looking for an airstrip ahead, and where are you?

That is why I fly with a transponder on even in Class G. The IFR aircraft will get separation advice from radar. And yet, there will be heaps of posts now about looking out the window etc etc etc. Last time I looked out the window (always) I couldn't see through clouds.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Not wishing to have a pop at anyone but I'm a bit concerned about the legality of operating VFR on top.

 

The VFR Guide (quoting CAR 1740) states "A pilot must not undertake a VFR flight on top of more than 4/8 cloud unless the aircraft is equipped with serviceable flight and navigation instruments as specified in CAO 20.18 Appendix IV (IFR and Night VFR)". The reference can be found at http://casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/orders/cao20/2018.pdf. I suspect not too many recreational aircraft would fully comply with these.

 

Any thoughts ?

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Yenn]

Well, Yenn, that is why if you are flying near an RPT airport, you carry a Transponder.

 

AND! You stay away from the strip - as RPTs do straight in's.

 

AND! You make calls when in the circuit.

 

Well flying dog, I can assure you I don't carry or need a transponder. I can hear the RPT's on the radio, plus all the choppers going to the islands and ships. The big worry is the pilots who garble their messages, leaving you unclear as to their position.

 

As far as the clouds go I think Maj. has hit the spot.

 

 

[flying dog]

Ok, quick follow up on my piccies.

 

As stated, there wasn't FULL cloud cover. There were holes. The first lot was near the snowy mountains (west) and I was going from Mt Selwyn to YHOT.

 

I stopped in at Khankohban. PPR. Given.

 

I am told that to fly "above" cloud you have to be able to get a fix every 30 minutes. This was achievable (spelling?).

 

Looking down there were holes and I could see what was below.

 

The second set - QLD - this was a line towards which I was flying. Note last picture with the arrow. That was a BIG enough hole for me to descend through before getting really stuck up there. I mentioned Brisbane radar asked me if I was doing arial work. (spelling - again)

 

Believe me I have been with someone else who just took off and flew over clouds with no checking, etc, from Kingaroy to Moree. Luckily I could have handled it if things got nasty. And doubly luckily, nothing did happen.

 

Anyway, I'm off now. Bye.

 

 

[Ultralights]

pictures of clouds from low angles and above can be very deceiving, and some are making comments on cloud cover based on the deceptive images.

 

have a look at this image,

 

Look only at the cloud layer? what does it look like? 5/8ths? 7/8ths?

 

 

Now look at the clouds shadows on the ground, and you will see that the cover is scattered, 2/8ths at most.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Dog, I wasn't doubting your abilities around cloud, and I did enjoy the photos. As I'm sure you are well aware, there can be considerable danger involved for the unwary. It is good that we can discuss this for the education of those, not as well prepared.

 

Like a lot of things in aviation, flying around cloud layers can be very educational, sometimes more than you expect. The more you do, the better your judgement becomes in respect to staying out of trouble. I have been caught on top of solid thick cloud, without either the skills or instruments to descend through, and with less than an hours daylight left. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy (well I might). I got lucky that afternoon, and a big single hole just magically appeared, otherwise I would have been forced to use my past VFR night rating, and every ounce of fuel in my tanks to get to somewhere in the clear.......Don't get caught on top with no options, not good !!.........................................................................

 

 

[flying dog]

Maj,

 

No worries. I was only posting the piccies for people's enlightenment.

 

As ultralights said, the low angle to the clouds makes them look more solid than they were.

 

 

[facthunter]

Flying "on top".

 

The good thing about it is you are not in the cloud (yet) and you can easily fly the aeroplane. You have a horizon.

 

A few of the bad things are:-

 

It is not LEGAL.

 

You may lose an engine and you will be flying in cloud. (gliding) and operating with only instruments if you have them.

 

The cloud may extend to the ground, in some places, so you may never see it even IF you are still in control. You will end up feeling it under those conditions, eventually.

 

You will have difficulty navigating under VFRules. It can be hard enough when you CAN see the ground sometimes. A big expanse of white cloud tops doesn't tell you where you are. You still have to come down sometime.

 

Going down through a hole.... The hole may disappear. Cloud is constantly changing.... or you may come out in a valley where you HAVE to climb back up through the cloud, HOPING that your aircraft can outclimb the hills. This is assuming that you can maintain control. This is not GOOD aircraft management, and may be a very BAD day. Nev..

 

 

[flying dog]

(Gee this has gone bad quickly. I am now not going to continue with this "discussion".)

 

All things said, I took the pictures from the window. The conditions did NOT kill me, and nothing bad happened.

 

Legal or not - which from the pictures you can not really say - I learnt things and am/WAS trying to share.

 

Apparantly this is not as good an idea as I thought.

 

 

[Admin]

(Gee this has gone bad quickly. I am now not going to continue with this "discussion".)All things said, I took the pictures from the window. The conditions did NOT kill me, and nothing bad happened.

 

Legal or not - which from the pictures you can not really say - I learnt things and am/WAS trying to share.

 

Apparantly this is not as good an idea as I thought.

What a load of rubbish mate!..PLEASE continue with these types of postings as they help everyone...I personally have made many mistakes AND have posted them here for everyone to also hopefully learn from them as well...remember my post about flying near end of daylight...also my post about landing at Avalon...my post about about flying at the back of a storm! All these experiences help us all and we should support these types of posts. Just think that one post may save a person's life so it is better for all to say something.

Also remember a photo doesn't always tell the whole story...a photo of what looks like you flying over a blanket of cloud doesn't show what is underneath you or on the other side or behind the aircraft. I was flying over a blanket of cloud in my CT following another CT which was being flown by someone who happened to be a Singapore Airlines A340 Capt but where ever he went I followed but I also noticed him not flying on track but moving away taking different headings. I asked him why and he said "see that gap over there..." he was always flying knowing where he had an "out" if needed and it was better flying that way then under it due to its height above ground.

 

The important thing in my personal opinion is to always fly within safe limits and if you start to feel unsafe then get back to where you are feeling safe with the knowledge of your training and then tell others the story...if only someone had told me that when flying East close to end of daylight always just turn the aircraft and check if there are any clouds likely to start blocking the sun and what light was left :big_grin:

 

 

[pudestcon]

Yeh I agree with Admin Flyingdog, don't stop threads such as this, 'cos there are guys like me who might not contribute to a particular thread but gain so much from the discussion. Well done with the thread topic mate.

 

Pud

 

 

[Tomo]

I very much Agree with Ian, Flying Dog,

 

You are the PIC of YOUR aircraft, and you obviously know your limitations and experience level. You consider it safe for your flight, so that is the right thing to do, usually our conscience will tell us if we aren't feeling right about a situation.

 

You adding those pictures are the ONLY way and most likely the BEST way any one else is going to learn about the subject. Giving a first timer a chance to see what it is like, and also causing a discussion about the right and wrongs and risks of flying over cloud.

 

I see that as very good learning material for all.