J160 flight report (from an LSA55 perspective)

[Guest AusDarren]

Today I had the pleasure of taking my wife along for a short Local flight at Tooradin in one of their new J160's.

 

It was really a wonderful day, We did a few circuits with one of the staff as I hadn't hired or flown at Tooradin before.

 

Several differences are very noticeable.

 

First the good points,

 

The extra room in the cabin both in width and height, are wonderful,

 

I'm 5'11" and a rather solid build, so the extra room is really appreciated.

 

(on the LSA my headset would occasionally come into contact with the beam Or the flap lever and then pick up vibration from the airframe. which was a bit annoying especially on a longer trip)

 

The throttle being moved up to the dash stops me flying hunched forward.

 

these two changes together are really great.:big_grin: :big_grin:

 

The new Y shaped control column is quite good, allowing to rest your arm in the centre, giving Aileron control on the ground in crosswind conditions while keeping your hand on the brake lever. big improvement..

 

while on the control column, the higher position is much better; it no longer will contact my leg if applying full aileron deflection. another plus!

 

one problem was the brake locking cam would drop down through the centre void if brakes were fully applied with the cam locked. and during runup the cam set was not sufficient to hold the aircraft stopped. (Perhaps this is just this aircraft? and not representative of type.)

 

The J160 was fitted with a new Dynon EFIS D10A (the Smaller EFIS)

 

I think after taking the time to get to know it; It will be an improvement over the instruments it replaces. However having tried it in flight, I would choose the full size model the D100, as I found the indications a bit hard to read, especially the VSI indication. The Dynon is an instrument that once you really know it I'm sure I'd come to love it.

 

The electric flaps are fairly conventional, I quite liked the manual flap system on the LSA, so its neutral, both systems work fine.

 

The ability to store folders and charts behind the Passengers is a plus where they are reachable in flight, this is a significant improvement over the LSA.

 

And now the negative point;

 

One thing I was disappointed with was the poor climb performance. the tanks were filled prior to the flight before mine and were about 15 litres shy of full.

 

so we were at max weight, and on a 28' Day from a sea level airport QNH 1019 so a little hot, and worse than ISA conditions, I got a 300fpm climb.

 

in mild thermal turbulence. I don't think it would be wise to operate at max weight in Summer at places like Tamworth and Armidale.

 

I think its time to disagree with Sir Charles Kingsord-Smith. (who said the only time an aircraft has too much fuel is if its on fire). I think it would be a better aircraft with smaller wing tanks. Who wants to fly a light Aircraft for 8 hours? I know its been done, but I wouldn't consider it normal.

 

Anyway I hope you find these observations helpful,

 

Regards and good flying,

 

AusDarren

 

 

[bushpilot]

Hi Darren ( I assume..),

 

Great report! Thank you..

 

For those of us who are hungry for info on a shortlist of a/c that we are considering buying, this sort of feedback, from pilots who do not have an agenda, is invaluable.

 

Re. the performance and fuel load - that is particularly relevant to me - as my strip is only 700m long and is at 770m ASL - and summers can be pretty warm.. But would not a simple solution be to only fill the wing tanks to say 60% capacity? (Unless heading off on an 7 hour flight).

 

Others may care to comment on any issues with this approach - i.e. greater chance of condensation in tanks if rarely more than 60% full, etc..

 

Cheers

 

Chris

 

 

[Geoff]

Chris consider the J170 for short strip the extra length wing does preform better in the clime for very little lose in speed

 

 

[bushpilot]

Thanks Geoff - Yep, I had noted the better STOL performance of J170, however it seems they are not available as a factory built.. And I haven't seen any used 170s advertised - since I started looking...

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

 

[Guest AusDarren]

Hi Darren ( I assume..),would not a simple solution be to only fill the wing tanks to say 60% capacity? (Unless heading off on an 7 hour flight).

Yes it is Darren!

 

Of course reducing weight, however you do it, will improve climb performance. which is not a problem when its your plane.

 

The only problem occurs when online, as the person before may just fill it up..

 

without knowing the next user may need a reduced fuel weight to meet MTOW.

 

having flown the early Jabiru's with the KFM and 1600a engine, the rate of climb performance was massively improved with the introduction of the 2200.

 

a 172 isn't much different in that fully loaded the climb performance is acceptable, in good conditions, yet hot and high unless the speed is pegged at 73 knots you may get no climb at all.

 

yet as a two person aircraft with fuel & Bags its Brilliant.

 

with the 182 those limitations are pretty much overcome.

 

I suspect the J230 with the 3300 engine and 2 seats would also be a superb performer. I'm yet to fly one though..

 

Just have to wait for Captain or Ross to give us that report.

 

Glad you enjoyed my 2c :-)

 

AusDarren

 

 

[Guest Roger]

Hi Darren,

 

Our J230C is about three months old now and is flown by 5 syndicate members of varying experience - me being the baby!

 

Firstly the Dynon. We ended up getting the D100 with the brighter screen and I have to say "Big is definitely Better". Another club member has a D10A in a Cessna Hawk and it is not big enough to see at a glance although no doubt you would get used to it. To start with I was always looking at the analogue gauges but now I very rarely do. Everything you need is in the one place. Its great to use and well worth your dollars. The next firmware upgrade should see some major improvements in its functionality when linked with a GPS.

 

Rate of Climb. I actually gave ours a test last Thursday. I climbed out to about 2500' levelled out checked temps/pressures etc and the set up climbing to 10,000'. VSI was steady on 600fpm holding 86kts IAS engine was at 2750rpm. Temps stayed well inside specs and moved up only slightly compared to level flight. Barometric pressure was 1016 and temp on the ground was 18C. Ceiling OAT was 6C. I have to say I think if you wanted to you could push it much harder but why bother. The aircraft was happy and so was I.

 

Now the things I dont like about my Jabiru. I did my early hours in a Tecnam - spoilt? yes! But the one thing the Tecnam gave me was a great view forward both during flight and on the flare. I am the same height at 5'11" and my view through the front isnt what I would like it to be. Maybe the seats could be raised a bit - there is as you pointed out good headroom. The other disappointing aspect in the seating area is the seats themselves. They are very park bench and not adjustable. Some basic padding and seat rails would make things much more comfy.

 

The other area which could be improved on is the door closing aspect. The lug on the top of the door itself means that the door has to be distorted to get the thing closed. I am sure that a simple change to the retaining method would fix this - its not serious, just a pain in the #@$%.

 

Dont get me wrong here - the above issues are probably my biggest gripes thus far.At this stage it has 70 hours up and has been trouble free as you would hope. It flys very nicely and is doing all the quoted figures. I am very pleased with our choice and count myself lucky to have it as my first aircraft. You could do far worse in my humble opinion!

 

Hope this sort of info is useful!

 

Cheers

 

Roger

 

 

[Guest AusDarren]

Hi Darren,Rate of Climb. I actually gave ours a test last Thursday. I climbed out to about 2500' levelled out checked temps/pressures etc and the set up climbing to 10,000'. VSI was steady on 600fpm holding 86kts IAS engine was at 2750rpm. Temps stayed well inside specs and moved up only slightly compared to level flight. Barometric pressure was 1016 and temp on the ground was 18C. Ceiling OAT was 6C. I have to say I think if you wanted to you could push it much harder but why bother. The aircraft was happy and so was I.

 

Hope this sort of info is useful!

 

Cheers

 

Roger

Yes Very much appreciated. thanks Roger. At what All up weight did you achieve the performance? eg full fuel? how much weight in people & bags?

 

Where is yours based?

 

Was it hard forming the syndicate?

 

Thanks very Much.

 

AusDarren

 

 

[Guest Roger]

Hi Darren,

 

I took off with full fuel - 135ltrs (thats how it goes back in the hangar). I weigh about 87kgs and there was very little else on board other then incidental gear, say another 10kgs max.

 

I am based at Narrandera YNAR elevation 473'. It has a great main and good crosswind gravel strip. There is a very active albeit smallish club, Murrumbidgee Aero Club that has a BBQ every second & fourth Sunday. We would jove you or anyone else to come along anytime - someone will be there to show you around. Wally Rudin runs his flying school from there and has people coming from all over Australia.

 

Our syndicate, YNAR Aviation, is incorporated and pretty much fell together. Two of our members had previous experience in aircraft syndication. We started out looking at the type of aircraft that would be easy to fly, could make a long distance trip reasonably quickly and wouldnt cost the world to run and maintain. In other words outlay wasn't a consideration as such. We decided that we needed the right aircraft and then we would get enough syndicate members to make it happen. Initial cost of the Jabiru landed back in Narrandera was approx $110K which is a lot of money at least in my world. A syndicate of 6 saw each individual outlay a little over 18K. On top was Hangar Keepers Liability, Aircraft Insurance and Hangarage. Just a quick word on insurance. It is based on the individual with the least flying hours. Anything less then 200hrs attracts a premium, a substantial premium! The difference was about $2500/yr on $110K. In our instance we had 50% our our syndicate that was in this bracket. The more experienced members graciously agreed to divide the cost equally. This could be an issue in a syndicate that has say one member only with less then 200hrs. These things need to be carefully worked through up front before you order your aircraft. Anyway that added another grand each - so $20k got us into a very smart brand new LSA aircraft.

 

The one big thing that was decided early on was to make the hourly flying cost as minimal as possible. That is no provision for repairs or maintenance. So we pay $35/hr which easily covers the fuel/oil component. We have our very own L2 who does our maintance so long as he gets a ride every now and then. We log our monthly flying hours according to the engine hourmeter and any extra costs are divided equally. When in comes to overhaul etc costs will be apportioned as per individual hours flown. Each month a spreadsheet arrives via email outlining your costs. Each member then electronically transfers into the syndicate bank account. We have an online booking calendar where you can book the aircraft - if there is conflicting bookings the member who is going the furtherest gets the nod.

 

There is a bit to it but all in all it has worked well so far. Just a word of warning regarding your initial outlay. Give yourself about 20% margin above your estimated outlay. Once you decide on what you are getting you will find the base cost will creep up according to the syndicates infacuation with gadgets and options.

 

If you have anything specific you would like to know I would be happy to help. I can only say for me it has been a great experience and well worth the effort.

 

Cheers

 

Roger

 

 

[Guest AusDarren]

Thanks Rodger sounds like Just the sort of Syndicate I'd love to be in myself, pity its a bit far away to be viable, though I will join your BBQ at first opportunity, My son Baden is also quite enthusiastic!

 

$35- an hour is certainly affordable, Though I think I'd prefer to have some provisions included, however as long as it works for you and your fellow members that is what really counts.

 

Sounds like the group is full of enthusiasm.

 

:big_grin:

 

Regards,

 

AusDarren

 

 

[Captain]

Rate of Climb. I actually gave ours a test last Thursday. I climbed out to about 2500' levelled out checked temps/pressures etc and the set up climbing to 10,000'. VSI was steady on 600fpm holding 86kts IAS engine was at 2750rpm.

That's not bad for only 2750 rpm, and based on Roger's test the 230 should exceed the factory's advised 700 fpm when you give it the berries at 85 KIAS climb speed.

 

Has anyone done it?

 

 

[leestanley]

Syndicate Question

 

Hi Rodger,

 

Thanks for the rundown on your syndicate operation. Would you say that 6 members is the upper limit? Have you ever not been able to fly when you have wanted to? Do you find that bookings can be made well in advance or can you fly on a whim?

 

The financial stuff looks straightforward - it's the potential for conflict re use that has me thinking.

 

Cheers,

 

Lee.

 

 

[Guest Roger]

Hi Lee

 

Sorry it took a bit to get back to you - I have been too busy flying

 

In regards to your questions......

 

I think the makeup of the syndicate in terms of their other commitments really influences the aircrafts availability. Our syndicate has a nice mix of retirees, shift workers and nine to fivers. Two are experienced GA pilots with many thousands of hours between them. This is something like the fourteenth aircraft for one of them! To my knowledge there has never been an instance where the aircraft wasnt available. The online calendar helps everyone manage their time and obviously common courtesy must prevail in relation to big trips away. ie Because I am going to Avalon I wont go to Narromine at Easter. The trick with it is book your day(s) early say a month in advance. I know the weather can spoil things but thats flying. Over Xmas one of the guys took it across to Robe (SA) for seven days. All of us thought that was great - it was actually going somewhere.

 

Could we have another member or two - mmm probably as at this stage we are probably averaging maybe 4-5 hours each per month. No one is "hogging" the LH seat however as we approach some cooler months I suspect this useage may increase. At the moment because the aircraft is generally at home you can go flying at your leisure.

 

;) Our "old hands" seem to be more interested in washing it and tinkering around then actually flying the pants off it! Which suits me just fine. It seems to be a match made in heaven at the moment. :;)7:

 

No doubt there has been some syndicates fail but if you have a group that consults and communicate like ours it is destined to succeed (Its a little bit like marriage).

 

Cheers

 

Roger

 

 

[Guest AusDarren]

Now if I could join a group like that somewhere near here (I Live in Taylors Lakes; So somewhere from Ballarat Gisborne Lilydale).. that would be great! thanks for the info Roger.

 

Regards,

 

AusDarren