Forget the transponder in forced landings?

[Guest burbles1]

I am trying to figure out why we still should include switching the transponder to 7700 in forced landing checks. In the Jabs I’ve flown, with Microair or Becker transponders, I find it fiendishly difficult and time-consuming to select 7700 as part of the many checks to do. With these instruments you need to check where the cursor is flashing (which is hard to see quickly on a LCD display) before then dialling in the correct number, then push another button to move along one digit and dial in the next number, then switch onto ALT. I could better use that time to select a landing spot, or check my glide speed, or attempt to restart the engine, etc. And anyway, isn’t selecting the transponder only good for ATC who can see you on their screen? What if you’re out the back of beyond – ATC aren’t going to do you much good. Wouldn’t it be better if you replace “turn the transponder onto 7700” with “activate your PLB” (which is what you would do anyway)? So, I’m suggesting forget one outdated check and replace it with a better one?

 

 

[Guest Brett Campany]

It depends I suppose at what height you are for the forced landing. I've found that above 2000ft you should have plenty of time as long as you don't panic, to switch to 7700.

 

It's a very important process because you come up as a red square on the ATC radar and immediately they know that an aircraft is in trouble. This is equally important incase no one hears your radio call.

 

Once you're at your glide speed and set out a place to land, it should be one of those top of the list items.

 

Also, check to see if your transponder has an emergency button which automatically goes to 7700.

 

 

[Ultralights]

setting 7700 on the Transponder is quite important, as mentioned before, it highlights you to ATC, and if your high enough, and get the signal out early, ATC might be able to get help on the way before you even land.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Is there an emergency button on the Microair transponder that selects 7700???

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Aviat, Navigate, Communicate....dialing in the transponder comes in the third catogory...if you've got time....no good hitting the ground while you are trying to find it.

 

 

[jcruffle]

Aviat, Navigate, Communicate....dialing in the transponder comes in the third catogory...if you've got time....no good hitting the ground while you are trying to find it.

It's normally on the top of the panel in the middle on a Jab. ...........sorry Maj!

 

 

[Tomo]

So should you still do it even if you are out of ATC area's?

 

I have no idea if ATC even monitors out here?

 

 

[facthunter]

Transponder use.

 

If you are not in radar coverage I cannot see what point. If you are high enough you might initially get it, but drop out is you descend. In a forced landing your obvious priority is to put the plane down on the best bit of land without damage.( or with minimal damage). This will get most of your attention.

 

When you change channels on the transponder you should select standby first so not to trigger other frequencies.(Unless things have changed).

 

It would be most unfortunate to be making radio calls and switching transponders and muck up the approach . Be aware that a paddock that looked pretty good from 5.000' may prove to be unsuitable at lower level and you might have to make some quick adjustments to your track. Always have a plan "B".

 

I recovered an engine that quit, by switching tanks several times even though both tanks had fuel. This was fortunate is the sandstone around Central Mangrove isn't the best place to land..You must strictly prioritise your actions. If you crash and burn away from an aerodrome it is very unlikely that anyone that you talk to on the radio, can be of much immediate assistance. Nev

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

So should you still do it even if you are out of ATC area's? I have no idea if ATC even monitors out here?

My point exactly - if you're outside ATC radar then you shouldn't pin your hopes on setting 7700, or even if your MAYDAY calls go unanswered. Isn't it better for RA-Aus training to start incorporating "activate PLB" as part of the pre-crashing checks - before you even make a MAYDAY? Just trying to get with the times, that's all.

 

 

[flyinghigh]

Being outside radar coverage doesn't mean that you won't be detected squaking 7700 - large commercial aircraft carry TCAS equipment and if overhead may detect your signal and relay it to CENSAR.

 

Aviate, navigate, communicate: don't set your transponder if you don't have enough time first to ensure the safest possible landing, activate your EPIRB, and send a mayday call. But NEVER think to yourself, "oh, I'll be fine, that paddock looks safe enough and I'll just look like an idiot if I send a mayday / squak 7700 / activate EPIRB". Accidents happen landing in paddocks, and it could be YOU spending the night on the ground with broken bones, in pain, way off course, waiting for help to come your way.

 

The first thing CENSAR are going to ask when you call them safely on the ground is "Are you ok? Thank goodness, we're so glad to hear that". They will not judge you for taking the steps to ensure YOUR safety. And if you don't know who CENSAR are, please take the time to find out and program the number into your mobile - their job is 100% to look out for your safety.

 

If it's been a while since you last practiced forced landings, give it some thought and take the time to at least rehearse your procedures: you don't want to be in the situation where the engine stops (or goes bang) and you can't remember your checks and procedures. Having the process memorized and rehearsed could very well save your life.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Querty, re: is there an emerg button on Microair Transponder ? I've had a look throught the manual and all I can find is the VFR-hot key on page 18. It is normally set as 1200 but theoretically you could set it to 7700. However the chances of hitting it accidentially therefore calling 'wolf' is high, so probabily best left on 1200 as it is intended................

 

 

[Guest 172M]

Sometimes arrogance belies ignorance. If you are operating a transponder you should have "ALT" selected not withstanding,If you have difficulty following the checks by wrote maybe it is time to take some remedial training within your organization!7700 will send people in the correct direction to look for your aircraft. assuming ATC know your type (or get it of the DB) they will be able to fairly reconstruct a search perimmiter to try to save you and yours'Sad Ass*s" ELT's are not the be all and end all.... What happens if the "G" switch does'nt trip ("you got lucky") or heaven forbid fire, they would have less than half a guess of where you and yours' may be. Perhaps Dingo tucker or worse...........Not withstanding the credo is

 

1 Aviate

 

2 Navigate

 

3 Communicate

 

FWIW

 

 

[Guest 172M]

Sometimes arrogance belies ignorance. If you are operating a transponder you should have "ALT" selected not withstanding,If you have difficulty following the checks by wrote maybe it is time to take some remedial training within your organization!7700 will send people in the correct direction to look for your aircraft. assuming ATC know your type (or get it of the DB) they will be able to fairly reconstruct a search perimmiter to try to save you and yours'Sad Ass*s" ELT's are not the be all and end all.... What happens if the "G" switch does'nt trip ("you got lucky") or heaven forbid fire, they would have less than half a guess of where you and yours' may be. Perhaps Dingo tucker or worse...........Not withstanding the credo is

 

1 Aviate

 

2 Navigate

 

3 Communicate

 

FWIW

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Thanks Maj.

 

I can't remember who suggested not to bother with selecting 7700, but I would suggest that if you are facing a forced landing that Selecting 7700 is wise irrespective of location. Of course selecting 7700 should take its place in prioritization for your attention/action, particularly if you are low to start with.

 

 

[Mazda]

172M, I think what people are getting at is that your transponder signal won't be picked up unless you are in secondary surveillance radar coverage.

 

That's a very valid point about fixed ELTs, which is why the portable ones are so good. You could activate it before landing as part of your shutdown checks. Personally I use good old BUMFISH modified to suit - eg undercarriage up or down to suit, mixture ICO, fuel off, etc. ELT can be activated under under instruments or switches (ELT on, switches off), hatches unlatched, harnesses tight.

 

But yes, the primary thing is to fly the aeroplane and get the thing down on the ground safely.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

I like BUMFISH its the sort of acronym that works well. I am not a twin pilot but my father is, I told me about an acronym he uses for an engine failure in a twin, I cant remember EXACTLY what it was but he did say it was the first thing that comes to mind in an engine failure situation. Anyway, evidently the procedure for dealing with the engine failure is to push the throttle, the mixture and the pitch leavers all the way to the firewall, retract landing gear and flaps, confirm which engine has failed, and switch that engine off. So it goes something like Firewall everything, Up everything, Confirm eng, Kill eng.

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Out at cecil you'll be on three people screens at least. You'll be on Oakey, Amberly and Brissy so if you've got the time I'd be plugging in those numbers or at least hit ident after the mayday call

 

 

[Alan]

Where do people keep their EPIRBs

 

Slightly off topic but where do other people keep their EPIRBs? In my J230 it lives in a safety grab bag (Water, First aid, torch, spare GPS etc) just behind the passenger seat where I can just reach it in flight. But I feel this is a compromise as I also keep the ERSA here and have found that retrieving the ERSA in turbulence troublesome. Any other thought?

 

Engine out in smooth air, OK reset the transponder, but flying out west up here (FNQ) in the typical turbulence after about 10am and then having an engine out you are going to be pretty busy just keeping the plane steady; trying to fiddle with the small buttons and knobs on the Microair is not going to be easy and would just adds to the stress. I suppose I should consider presetting the distress code in the standby memory, but as Maj offers this would enhance the risk of false alarms.

 

Alan

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Grab bags are a good idea, and should be easy to locate, and well, grab on the way out. My GME GPS beacon is attached just by my left leg, and I leave the cord out so I can grab that easily.

 

If the worst case scenero occurs, and the plane catches fire, or I'm inverted in muddy water, I know where it is, and I can located it quickly before exiting. If there is one thing I want it's that beacon !!................................................................................................

 

 

[Spin]

Sometimes arrogance belies ignorance.

Bit uncalled for in the context of the discussion I would have thought, is there another agenda we should be aware of?

 

I have re-read the posts on this thread and it seems we are all largely in agreement, make the change to 7700 if you are able to, but don't drop the aeroplane to fly the knobs to mangle a phrase. I am not familiar with the Microair transponder, but it seems a serious drawback not to be able to change the squawk code quickly and easily.

 

On a lighter note, there is a story of a low time pilot in a C152 being hijacked by a shotgun toting baddie on the apron of a large airport in the US. He coolly selected [edit: the hijack code] on the transponder, only to have atc nearly bring him undone by sarcastically enquiring on the radio whether he really meant to indicate that he had been hijacked!

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Slightly off topic but where do other people keep their EPIRBs? In my J230 it lives in a safety grab bag (Water, First aid, torch, spare GPS etc) just behind the passenger seat where I can just reach it in flight. But I feel this is a compromise as I also keep the ERSA here and have found that retrieving the ERSA in turbulence troublesome. Any other thought?Engine out in smooth air, OK reset the transponder, but flying out west up here (FNQ) in the typical turbulence after about 10am and then having an engine out you are going to be pretty busy just keeping the plane steady; trying to fiddle with the small buttons and knobs on the Microair is not going to be easy and would just adds to the stress. I suppose I should consider presetting the distress code in the standby memory, but as Maj offers this would enhance the risk of false alarms.

 

Alan

My epirb hangs around my neck. Apart from scaring my pasengers when they ask what this is for, I can't find a better and accessable place for it.

I tried the map pocket and it got wet once, no damage though.

 

 

[flying dog]

BUMFISH, learnt it but was annoyed with it.

 

Why check if the wheels are down on a NON RETRACTABLE plane?

 

Why check the mixture when there isn't one?

 

By doing these "extra" things, you learn to skip them, then one day you are in a plane with those features, and don't do them correctly.

 

I learnt: F C O S T.

 

Fuel - check it is on and available. (Turn on pump)

 

Carb' heat - PULL IT ON! So this is in contradiction to "all things to the fire wall" mentioned by someone else.

 

Oil - check temp and pressure. Loss of oil is a good cause for engine failure.

 

Switches - check both Mags, etc. Were they bumped off?

 

Try to start the engine again.

 

Landing gear, etc are NOTHING to do with getting the engine started again. They may be valid for landing, but as I was told, that is further down the list than the initial failure.

 

Yes, I agree fully:

 

Aviate, navigate, communicate.

 

 

[flying dog]

Oh, WRT "Grab bags":

 

Yes they are a good idea. But as was mentioned, you get into the habit of putting other things in them too.

 

"Just in reach" is a bit worrying for me. Sure you don't want it "in your face" when flying, but "just in reach"?!

 

If you crash and because of the low height haven't had time to get it FULLY IN REACH and it is now just OUT OF reach, you are in trouble.

 

I have no magic answer to that, but sure a first aid kit, water and stuff like that are good things to have in it. The only thing I would say is this: DO NOT PUT THINGS IN THERE WHICH EXPIRE! Like tablets, etc. Water is a bit tricky. Torches, welll, they have batteries.

 

EPIRB - did I mention I won one? - well on your person is the best place. Flying suits are terrific for this kind of thing. They have many pockets and you put things in specific pockets for that reason. You know where they are. I guess the down side is that you do get a bit heavy carrying all this extra stuff - but I guess it goes with the hoby.

 

Happy flying.

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

Took a Jab out today for some practice forced landings. It had a Becker transponder with VFR1 and VFR2 buttons on the top, and STO and IDENT on each side. The display had 1200 on the top and sby on the bottom, indicating there's obviously capability for a standby code. But pushing the VFR buttons didn't work, and twiddling the knob just brought up a flashing cursor for the active 1200 code. Couldn't see how to set the sby code so I'll need to try and find a manual somewhere before the next flight.

 

My training didn't adequately cover how the transponder (or radio for that matter) works in its entirety - what does this button do, how do I set that? It'd be good if FTFs cover this sort of info before the PC flying test.

 

 

[ahlocks]

'tis my understanding that the 'Standby' function brings the transponder to a powered state without transmitting. Originally it was to do with the old valve jobbies needing warm up time to stabilise the Tx section...or something along that line.

 

It is still considered good form to switch the transponder to standby when entering a new code to prevent incorrect ones (like the top secret duress code) being accidentally transmitted if you have a fingerphart.