Random question

[DarkSarcasm]

Yet another of the random questions that strike me at various hours of the day and night (this one struck me on the train home today, staring out the window at the rain...). I'm sure the answer is fairly obvious, but still...

 

Let's say you've been zooming around the circuit for a bit and then for some reason do a full stop instead of a T&G (not enough runway left for the go, instructor deciding the jump out, whatever reason). My question is, do you still need to do your pre-takeoff checks before you jump back into the circuit?

 

I know it's probably obviously "yes, of course you must you berk", but it seems arguable both ways. I mean, you're about to take off so it seems logical that you should do them, but since you've just done a stack of circuits and would've kept on doing them anyway, is it kind of redundant to do the pre-takeoff checks because it is presumably working well since you survived the last stack of circuits?

 

Apologies if you all read this question and go "I can't believe anyone is asking this!" :peepwall:

 

Note to all out there: never become a lawyer, you'll find ways to argue everything two ways and it'll drive you absolutely bananas

 

 

[Tomo]

Its a valid question, so don't kill yourself over it... ;)

 

I get what you mean, but try and think of the pre-take off checks as a 'life and death' (or a very good thing to do!), rather than a 'have to' just because that is what everyone does.... it is doing 'yourself' the favour, there is no 'legalness' against it, so your not going to get a fine or whatever if you don't... but it's much nicer knowing everything is good when blasting off into wind.

 

If you can get what 'I' mean?! :big_grin:

 

It's just like you check how much fuel you have in the aircraft before starting up, take off checks are the same.

 

I will do a run up every time I have switched the engine off... even if its just for a minute, I always will do a run up and check the mag's... some people think that is irrelevant because it was just running fine before... but from a mechanic's perspective I'd always do it!

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

I'm not trying to avoid doing them, it's more I'm wondering what the accepted practice is. :)

 

When turning the engine off, then yes of course I'd do them.

 

What I'm mainly wondering is when you do a full stop, don't turn the engine off, just taxi back to the runway to do another take off. Do you need to do them then as well? Or since you haven't turned the engine off at all, it isn't really needed?

 

 

[Simonflyer]

Generally speaking I always do a quick check of Fuel, Ts and Ps,Flaps and trim before i blast off again(and of course making sure the door is shut properly and the belt is done up after your instructor gets out-Its been a while since ive had this scenario..), but if there is other aircraft in the cct it is a good idea to get going asap.

 

Saying that, you want to make sure you are comfortable and everything is good before you get back in the air again...

 

That was a long way of saying NO I dont usually do a full pre takeoff, but definitely a good check over things..

 

Hope that helps.

 

p.s remember to continually bombard your instructor with any questions, as that is their job, and you part with your hard earned to get as much knowledge as you can from them.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

p.s remember to continually bombard your instructor with any questions, as that is their job, and you part with your hard earned to get as much knowledge as you can from them.

It's more that I think of random things at random times and I know I'm going to forget by my next lesson (especially when I'm madly concentrating on my attempts at landing) so I figure I may as well chuck some of the randomer ones on here before I forget them :)

 

But don't worry, I do ask him questions :) Posting some of them on here helps me to remember to ask about them too!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Darky I can't believe anyone is asking this !.....No really, if it constitutes a fresh takeoff yes sure you would do some pretake-off checks. Obviosly you don't need to pull over , switch off, jump out and do another daily......but it would be prudent to do a cockpit check of things required in your particular aircraft, to guarantee a safe take off. IE: Fuel remaining ?, check of where the fuel is being drawn from, and maybe switching over to a safer tank situation for climb out, flap position required for the forthcoming takeoff ?, quick mental check on just how heavy the aircraft is now, due recent fuel burn, check of wind sock for any wind direction, or runway changes. Has the wind risen above the aircraft and my capabilities ?. Maybe a bit of carb heat, and a quick mag check would not be out of place on the taxiback. Hows the pilot doing ?, could he/she use a couple of mouthfulls of water, and maybe loosen the belts for a bit of a body move around, just to keep the blood flowing to the correct places. How about the QNA...still accurate ? Mags are good, temps are nice, carb heat off, boost pump on. Where's the trim, ok for takeoff ?. Do we have the correct airport frequency still dialed. And last but not least, lets just run mentally through our EFATO plans just so we are totally ready. You are the master of the ship, or Pilot in command. Yes it is up to you to do whatever is necessary, to ensure a safe take off, and flight. Hope this helps answer your question.....................................................................................

 

 

[Tomo]

Runup checks and pre-take off checks are two similar but different things.

 

The runup you do once everytime the engine is started. (1800rpm, mags L/R, Carby heat etc...)

 

Pre-take off checks you do everytime before you take off (fuel, harness, latches, instruments/controls, engine in the green, flap, trim etc...)

 

=====

 

Major covers it beautifully above!

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Runup checks and pre-take off checks are two similar but different things.The runup you do once everytime the engine is started. (1800rpm, mags L/R, Carby heat etc...)

 

Pre-take off checks you do everytime before you take off (fuel, harness, latches, instruments/controls, engine in the green, flap, trim etc...)

And therin lies the basis for my question! Cheers Tomo :big_grin: On the checklist I use, the 'pre-takeoff checks' include all of those - all the mag/carby heat/flap/etc checks as well as the full, free and correct controls and hatches & harnesses.

 

So (keeping in mind that the engine hasn't been turned off at all or anything) rather than following the checklist exactly, you'd more pick out the ones that are more likely to need re-checking. So not so much the mag/carby heat etc checks, but the ones that are more likely to have changed - fuel, hatches/harnesses, controls etc. Does that sound right?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

yeah I suppose that'll do Darky. Just don't miss anything important ok, and 'screw the pooch' as Chuck Yeager would say. Remember Chuck Yeager ? He became an Ace in one day with five 'kills' over germany. Then he got shot down, and had to carry one of his wounded friends over the alps on his shoulders to safe territory, in the middle of a freezing European winter. Oh, and did I mention he was the first man to break the sound barrier in 1947. Fly like Chuck Yeager Darky, you'll be right. If you still don't know who Yeager is get a copy of 'The Right stuff '. It's a long movie but pretty much tells it like it was, and he was the man back then. He also does a cameo appearance as the old barman in the desert pilots' bar. Worth a watch.

 

 

[Bryon]

Darky,

 

one of the tips I have picked up is a simple checklist that I use whenever I am am taxying out to the runway

 

CHIFFTAR

 

C controls full and free

 

H hatches and harnesses secure

 

I instruments - check and set

 

F fuel - switches on

 

- tank selected

 

- pressure OK

 

- qty checked

 

F flaps checked

 

T trim for takeoff

 

A area all clear

 

R radio on & correct frequency

 

it is basic and covers all of the essentials

 

Hope this helps

 

Bryon :thumb_up:

 

 

[Thx1137]

I am with Tomo. No runup but do the rest. The POH from the Jabiru site actually splits the runup and pretakoff checks into two seperate sets of checks. The J160 POH has:

 

Pre Take-Off

 

Master Switch ..........................................ON

 

Ignition switches.......................................BOTH ON

 

Fuel Shutoff Valve....................................ON

 

Fuel Quantity............................................CHECK sufficient for task

 

Fuel Pump ...............................................ON

 

Flaps........................................................TAKE OFF (first stage)

 

Instruments ..............................................SET AND CHECK ALL

 

Switches ..................................................SELECTED as required

 

Circuit Breakers .......................................CHECK

 

Controls ...................................................FULL & FREE TRAVEL, CORRECT SENSE

 

Hatches ................................................... CLOSED & LOCKED

 

Harnesses ............................................... SECURE all seat belts correctly fastened and adjusted

 

Oil temperature........................................ ABOVE 50C

 

In the situation you describe I would do:

 

Pre Take-Off

 

Fuel Quantity

 

Fuel Pump

 

Flaps

 

Instruments (I do a quick scan, especially alt)

 

Hatches

 

Harnesses

 

Ts and Ps

 

Trim

 

I think in the situation you describe it depends on what the your comfortable with. I added Ts and Ps and Trim to the list, it is in the run-up checklist in the POH. I actually do trim after "Controls" because moving the controls full travel can upset any trim setting (the hire plane I used the trim would move a lot during control deflection testing).

 

Steven.

 

 

[Tomo]

And therin lies the basis for my question! Cheers Tomo :big_grin: but the ones that are more likely to have changed - fuel, hatches/harnesses, controls etc. Does that sound right?

No worrys Darky...

 

Sounds good, try and keep your scan for the checks the same each time - start at the same spot sort of thing - that way it eliminates missing something.

 

Have fun!

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Thanks all :)

 

 

[GraemeK]

For mine, I'd do the same checks as I'd normally do.

 

Firstly, it reinforces the routine, so if I'm doing it every time I'm unlikely to forget it.

 

Secondly, any chance to make sure all plugs/magnetos performing OK, flap motors still working, fuel pump operational, etc etc is good and should be taken.

 

Finally, some really bad crashes (think Madrid recently) have occurred when the crew was under pressure and failed to carry out checks because they assumed nothing had changed (in Madrid, assuming the flaps were still at take-off after a previously aborted T/O). Why the FFESTT check is important, last chance to catch things before you enter the runway.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea, i'm of the thinking the question should be, why NOT do them. I can't think of any good reason's.:thumb_up:

 

 

[BecM]

I always re-do the checks.

 

Its the way that my instructor taught me and since I think the man could land a plane on a dime I trust him.

 

For me its piece of mind that I haven't forgotten anything.

 

Just my two bobs worth (I actually have never had a two bobs worth or a dime but hey it sounds good)

 

Fly safe

 

Bec

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

.Just my two bobs worth (I actually have never had a two bobs worth or a dime but hey it sounds good)

It does sound better than 'he could land on a 50 cent coin' (what is a dime worth anyway?)

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

A dime is a tenth of an American dollar, I have several of them.

 

 

[Guest check-in]

A touch and go is a continuous exercise, so no checks really required, other than setting the flaps and trim (from memory) and off you go. Landing to a full stop SHOULD have you doing after landing checks out of habit and for the practice of the exercise. Therefore, pre takeoff checks are required to reconfigure to go again. Also - whenever doing checks - whether from memory or from a checklist (see separate thread on that subject) and an interruption occurs (such as having to yak on the radio to get traffic) - ALWAYS start the checks at the beginning again and work through them in whatever pattern you have been taught.

 

It may seem like overkill if you just dropped your instructor off to do some solo, but at this stage you do not have the experience to know what shortcuts you can afford to take. Runups and ignition checks for example. Do you REALLY know that the engine is still OK just by listening to it at idle or on initial power application? Probably not. Has it fouled a plug during the time on the ground? Is it a day when some carb ice may have formed? You need to be forming sound habit patterns, not deciding to short-cut the pre takeoff checks.

 

Later you may gain the expertise to check ignitions and carb heat etc while on a fast taxi, but definitely not for beginners, and probably best left for when you own the aeroplane and don't have to answer to the school if you stuff it up.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Darks, I am not convinced that this actually qualifies as a random question. You are a pilot asking a flying related question on a web site dedicated to flying discussion. A random question would be more , well, random. For example, What is the percentage cheese fat one could expect from Anglo-nubian goats grazing on green pasture in Kazacstan in spring? Now I'd call that a random question. Or, What is the average rate of genetic mutation in Barn Owls? That would probably be a random question also.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Cameron, In what way were the example questions not random. The subject matter of both questions had little to do with ANY previous subjects that I have seen discussed here.

 

I was not actually interested in the answers, I was simply providing examples of questions that could be considered to be random. and BTW the fat percentages quoted are averages and not specifically pertaining to Anglo-nubians on green pasture in Kassacstan in spring.

 

 

[Tomo]

A random question would be more , well, random. For example, What is the percentage cheese fat one could expect from Anglo-nubian goats grazing on green pasture in Kazacstan in spring? Now I'd call that a random question. Or, What is the average rate of genetic mutation in Barn Owls? That would probably be a random question also.

Poor Qwerty, you're bored... ;)

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

I do apologise Qwerty, I will have to check the dictionary and update my (apparantly incorrect) definition of random.

 

Have to admit I'm curious about those goats now though...

 

Just to clarify, for myself I think I'd do the full set of checks just to be certain that everything was working properly. The reason I was asking was mainly that my nutty law-trained mind could find ways to argue it both ways (should do, shouldn't do) so I was merely curious about what other people did. :)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Darks, I am not convinced that this actually qualifies as a random question. You are a pilot asking a flying related question on a web site dedicated to flying discussion. A random question would be more , well, random. For example, What is the percentage cheese fat one could expect from Anglo-nubian goats grazing on green pasture in Kazacstan in spring? Now I'd call that a random question. Or, What is the average rate of genetic mutation in Barn Owls? That would probably be a random question also.

They aren't random questions Qwerty, they are directly related to aviation:

 

In spring it's warm and if you leave the goats cheese out it becomes high

 

As to the second question, the rate is 30 degrees

 

 

[turboplanner]

It does sound better than 'he could land on a 50 cent coin' (what is a dime worth anyway?)

Two zacs.

 

I noticed someone mentioned a flap incident.

 

I got an instant lesson in re-doing the checks one day when, just as we turned off the strip after doing a full stop, my instructor decided he wanted me to do a couple of solo circuits, and started a detailed briefing right when I would be bringing the flaps up.

 

I got engrossed in the procedures he was talking about, trying to memorise the twenty different things he was telling me to do, and when he jumped out, with the engine running, I thought about going through the checks again, but decided the engine hadn't stopped, and with the dumb logic that I was only going up for two circuits, rolled down and took off.

 

We've discussed in another thread the wild ride you get in a Jab 170 trying to take off with full flap; the thing just hung in the sky with the nose wanting to point at the moon and the speed was not increasing. Fortunately I became professional again, pushed the nose down and flew along the strip until I could get flying speed and all was well.

 

Now I do my pre take off checks every time I'm about to line up.