Jab Engine Oil Type

[Guest The Bushman]

As a user and owner of a jab 2200 engine in a J170 it has raised its head again as to the type and brand of engine oil used in a 2200 jab Engine

 

Now before you all jump on the screen and state what Jab recommends let me ask a question

 

As aero oil is a aviation oil for general aviation Aircraft ie 15w50 the tolerance on a cessna aircraft are quite large compared to a jab engine it is like comparing a sewing machine to a watch

 

Well as the jab has closer tolerances and therefore a better quality oil would be required

 

So has anybody used a semi synth oil in 15/50 say Mobil1 in a jab 2200 and if so have you had no problems ??? they use it in VW Aero conversions with great results Aero oil was found to be no good:encore::encore:

 

James

 

 

[facthunter]

Oils & other matters.

 

IF you are running with avgas, use aviation oil. It is designed to look after the lead. Shell w-100 plus has the additives for lycoming camshaft and is helpfull for engines that are not used everyday..

 

Re clearances. The jab pistons run similar clearances to cont & lycoming for their bore size. All air cooled engines have large piston clearances to allow for the day when everything is not quite right. Ie high power, slow flight and hot day. If the clearances were any less the engine would not be reliable till it was about half life. It would run the risk of seizure. I have to point out that tolerance and clearance is a different matter. Clearance is what is the designed required "play" or looseness. Tolerance applies to whether the part is within specification re size. If it is bigger or smaller by more than a small margin ( the specified tolerance) then it is a reject, as running fits and interferance fits will be wrong. Nev

 

 

[Guest The Bushman]

yes can see that but the Semi Synth oil will also get rid of the lead

 

James

 

 

[jetboy]

James if you have a newer engine with hydraulic lifters playing about with these other oils and green 100/130 avgas (I presume thats the stuff you use in oz as our supply comes from there too?) will be hazardous.

 

VW conversions are not aero engines either, and the Mobil 1 I have for cars is 100% synthetic, the real oil, so to speak, 5/50 which would run out the ass of the Jab faster than you could replenish it.

 

These brands are misleading for auto oils I used to run Castrol TTS in Rotax 503 and the next carton poured different, smelt different and I checked with them and the formula had been changed - just like Mobil 1 has been switched.

 

I used Aeroshell 15/50 for a while but now Castrol Aviator AD100 as its easier and less costly to get and the useage, temps etc. are little changed in fact cooler but that does not prove anything

 

Ralph

 

 

[Guest The Bushman]

Jetboy

 

As the 503 is a 2 stroke engine why would you use engine oil in it as the 503 has no Sump

 

and we use 100 ll fuel and no it is not a hyd tappet engine any other information would be great

 

James:hittinghead::hittinghead:

 

 

[jetboy]

Yes James the 503 uses 2 stroke premix and the best at the time was Castrol TTS unless you were on the fringe side of Amsoil at 100:1

 

Castrol also make an "air cooled 4 stroke motorcycle engine" oil which I used to use in my Honda 1300 Coupe.

 

What colour is your 100 LL avgas? I'm surprised you can get it in oz as nobody has it here. All the data sheets for avgas 100 are the green stuff

 

Ralph

 

 

[facthunter]

More...

 

Castrol TTS is a two-stroke oil. The point being made (I think) is that formulations change even if the product name does not, sometimes. All the major oil companies make aero engine oils (I will confine myself to the piston engine type here as turbine oils are a totally different matter.). Aero engine oils are a more controlled product than ANY automotive oil.

 

There are some specific aero synthetics, and some pilots use them. They are much more expensive. There are also multi-grades which have polimers added to REDUCE the viscosity change that occurs with temperature. There are also "straight " oils that do not have polimers added. The straight oils do not degrade as much as the multi-grades if left in the sump for long periods. I am not talking of contamination, which all oils suffer due to blow-by and wear of components, dust ingestion etc. Another consideration where a reduction gear is fitted and lubricated by the common oil system is that the oil must be suitable for the gear drive and any friction clutches that may be incorporated in the design. (Rotax 4-strokes)

 

Most pilots are aware of the need to get the engine to a minimum temp before a run-up is performed and taKe-off undertaken. The multi-grades are considered better for cold climate winters.

 

The need to cope with the lead is not necessary for road vehicles since no petrol used there has any in it. The aero oils are the only ones that do the job and whatever engine I used in an aircraft, I would use aero oils IF I was running on avgas, period. Nev.

 

 

[Harthy]

Oils

 

I can't believe this conversation is even happening. This is the reason some of our members can get into trouble, and then question why. Unless you have stong contacts with oil companies and are up on oil blending, I would say leave it to the pros. OILS AINT OILS!!

 

 

[Guest check-in]

Harthy is so right. Every engine should have an owner's manual. Every manual will list recommended oils. Use anything else at your peril. Once I got stuck seriously low on oil at Ceduna and had little choice because the refueller there no longer carries aero engine oil. Lucky the local servo had some Shell SAE 50 air-cooled motorcycle oil. I figured it was the next best thing - for an air-cooled aero engine. Also it was from the same manufacturer which gave me a little comfort. But I drained it all out at the first opportunity and went back to the right stuff.

 

I have heard of one commercial operator that uses el-cheapo automotive oil in his Rotaxes and swears by it. Whether true or not, if he ever has an engine failure which results in injury or death to another person, he is GONE GONE GONE if the failure is in any way oil-related.

 

 

[Vev]

Hi James,

 

 

There is a significant difference in the chemical additive systems used in Aero Engine Lubes to create an ashless formulation. Automotive lubes (including air cooled 4 stroke motorcycle oils) use a metallic based anti wear additive system (often zinc) that isn’t acceptable to most aero engine manufactures owing to the potential for deposit formation during the combustion process. Jabiru doesn’t support automotive type lube systems as they do not meet their requirements.

 

 

By the way … You asked about using semi – synthetics … the recommended Shell 15W-50 is in fact a semi – synthetic by chemical definition.

 

 

From my point of view, without thousands of hours testing both on a dyno and field work with the OEM I wouldn’t do anything else other than stick with recommended lubes…. There are way too many things to go wrong without testing properly. Besides, I really don’t think you will achieve any better result than using the recommended lube.

 

 

The absolute best thing to do re lubrication: change your oil frequently, use quality filters and don’t allow the oil to get too hot and keep it clean from dust and contamination.

 

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

[Guest The Bushman]

Hi James,

There is a significant difference in the chemical additive systems used in Aero Engine Lubes to create an ashless formulation. Automotive lubes (including air cooled 4 stroke motorcycle oils) use a metallic based anti wear additive system (often zinc) that isn’t acceptable to most aero engine manufactures owing to the potential for deposit formation during the combustion process. Jabiru doesn’t support automotive type lube systems as they do not meet their requirements.

 

 

By the way … You asked about using semi – synthetics … the recommended Shell 15W-50 is in fact a semi – synthetic by chemical definition.

 

 

From my point of view, without thousands of hours testing both on a dyno and field work with the OEM I wouldn’t do anything else other than stick with recommended lubes…. There are way too many things to go wrong without testing properly. Besides, I really don’t think you will achieve any better result than using the recommended lube.

 

 

The absolute best thing to do re lubrication: change your oil frequently, use quality filters and don’t allow the oil to get too hot and keep it clean from dust and contamination.

 

 

Cheers

 

Jack

Hi Veverjg

Thanks for that answer this was the type of responce I was looking for straight to the point and factural one person started on about 2 stroke oil shows he missed the point, just asking you never know unless you ask

 

James

 

 

[bushcaddy105]

Aero oils in auto conversions?

 

More questions:-

 

What are your thoughts on the most appropriate oil to use in liquid cooled auto engines used in aircraft, running on 100LL Avgas? Aviation oils or auto oils?

 

For the record, I've had no problems using Castrol Magnatec 10W/40 (a semi-synthetic according to Castrol) in my Subaru, but am always open to a better alternative!

 

 

[facthunter]

Suitability. Oils.

 

Simple. Run on Avgas, you have lead in the fuel-use aviation oils whether car engine or aero engine. It is the fuel that is really different. Exception... Rotax, doesn't really like leaded fuel. (Heads run too cool) Use it now and again when you have to, shorten oil change period. Stick to original makers recommendations, which covers the requirements of the redrive and drive clutches.

 

This is all in accordance with makers philosophy.

 

Interesting case. Lycoming running on mogas (Some are approved.) No lead. No harm sticking to Aviation oils, but some of the " motor" oils for bikes (4-stroke) should be fine, ie Shell superbike 4 which was the first Shell oil recommended for Rotax 912 etc. There are very few oils out there that are recommended for air-cooled engines to choose from.

 

I use Aviation oils in quite a lot of early 4-stroke motorcycles with good results, because I know they are designed for high temps, are quality assured and are not much (if any) dearer than the alternatives . Nev..

 

 

[Vev]

Hi John,

 

This is not the simplest of questions but there is an answer.

 

Castrol’s Magnatec is a very high quality engine oil which uses excellent base oils and additives to make it one of the best engine lubes on the market. Whilst its specifications including the US API specs and the European ACEA specs, which suggest it has backward compatibility and performance with earlier engine oils that included engine sequence tests on leaded fuels.. . however these tests are now somewhat obscure today … never the less it does indicate it is compatible with leaded fuels (albeit at lower levels of lead concentration than Avgas LL) and will most likely do a good job.

 

The other issue to consider is your engine (Subaru??) was designed to use automotive style lubricants which have a different additive chemistry to ashless aviation lubes… therefore ashless aviation formulations are not really the best selection in my view.

 

Fortunately for you, Shell has recently developed the Aero Shell Sport 4, which carries most of the recognised automotive specs, including the Japanese JASO MA motorcycle spec for wet clutches (important for Rotax) along with excellent capability to manage Avgas LL. I would think this to be a better selection for your purposes…. it provides the correct chemistry for automotive engineering and can tolerate the lead in the fuel at Avgas concentrations.

 

However please be mindful this product is not suitable for Jab engines as they need an ashless formulation which is derived from a different chemical additive system.

 

Why don’t you give Shell’s technical help line a call and talk it over with them to satisfy yourself of the technical merits.

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

[turboplanner]

I'm stunned at the course of this thread, and it certainly provides some good background evidence to the threads where people criticise the life cycle of aircraft engines.

 

There are many many more aspects to the final selection of a given oil for a given engine, not the least of which are life cycle dyno tests.

 

To say "Im having no problems" is not a judgement basis, you need to run the engine out to the point where the manufacture recommends rebuild, and tghat tells a better story. Usually that point is well short of the manufacturer's test results and leads to the unjustified slagging of a product.

 

Why wouldn't you just contact the manufacturer who designed the product, and knows WHY he specified a cerftain lubricant?

 

 

[bushcaddy105]

Thanks, Jack, for your most informative reply. I will indeed seek info from Shell.

 

 

[wizzard1964]

Hey James..

 

Donny at Jabiru told me 15W50 is the go, He told me it also gets the heat out of the motor quicker... He also said brand was not that important, as long as it's aero oil. I think they use shell, because the nearest depot is a shell depot..

 

ttfn WG