Stick & Rudder

[turboplanner]

Ok tubs.. How would you handle it?? More is the point, how would you teach it??

I would teach setting the aircraft up for the landing at the correct turnpoint for final and the correct altitude.

 

From that point, I would teach how to use elevators to control the speed accurately (staying on the approach speed), and the throttle to control altitude (staying on the glide slope).

 

I notice there's a lot of dancing going on with adherents of the reverse switching horses in mid course and going for everything from combinations to throttle - which is not what they are arguing for.

 

Darky, when you experience a big wind shear you'll know it - there isn't time for a reasoned decision like you explained - it's a fraction of a second thing. My CFI who was very switched on - well he gave me plenty of curry - died in one, and I would have said he had enough hours up to do something, but it obviously was just too quick for him.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Well, the obvious response to that (besides im sorry to hear that) would be, hopefully the student would be trained enough to recognise when severe winshear (which is what yoiur describing) might be expected, and stay at home and watch the cricket.

 

How would an attitude approach help in that situation?

 

 

[turboplanner]

In the case you point out above and you were my student, I'd be out with you for more circuit training, your circuits are to big, you've not managed your speed all that well and you've been to slow to recognise any sink.Most good schools teach what MAZDA, DJP and MERV have indicated.

I'm an inner circuit flyer - you can pick up a couple of extra landings that way at Moorabbin, and my RA instructors all but insisted on being able to open a door and skid your boot along the strip - I was talking about severe wind shear not just sink, and remember I said I had gone 20 years without ever experiencing it. Most pilots will go a lifetime without experiencing that amount of drop without any warning.

 

I would argue that I had the best RA Instructor in the business and he didn't teach point and shoot, so perhaps the people you mention have not explained exactly what they mean.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Sorry fellas, I just dont get it.

 

Full flap or not, point my jab down and you are going to accelerate.

 

To explain my point of view, who cares what the attitude on approach is, from the base turn, the engine is at idle and I fly towards the theshold allowing a bit for the inevitable sink (sink is wind dependant). If my decent rate is such that I am not going to make it (decent rate too high), I add a bit of thrust, if I am on short final and look like over shooting MY mark I slip a bit to shorten it up.

 

I dont aim the aircraft and I pay zero attantion to attitude. I can however tell you that the aircraft is not pointing down hill. In fact, depending on the wind direction and strength the aircraft can point almost anywhere else, I don't care as long as I am going in the direction that I want.

 

Please tell me what I have missed. With so many instructors saying "attitude" I am concerned that I may have missed something. BTW I flew with Eugene.

 

Qwerty

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well, the obvious response to that (besides im sorry to hear that) would be, hopefully the student would be trained enough to recognise when severe winshear (which is what yoiur describing) might be expected, and stay at home and watch the cricket.How would an attitude approach help in that situation?

Both the occasions which happened to me were totally unexpected by me (you can argue I should have spent more time checking the weather) and the instructors.

 

I don't want to see a situation where a student decides he/she should be at home watching cricket, I want to see them instantly, and MOST importantly, subconsciously, get on full throttle.

 

What the do next is the follow on as the adrenaline kicks in.

 

The very worst thing you can ever do when training anyone is create voids, where the person has to think when instant action was required.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You're on he money Qwerty, don't change

 

 

[motzartmerv]

qwerty. next time your flying your jab do something for me. Put it in a glide, lower all the flap, and hold the nose in a level attitude. As in for normal cruise level flight. If your IAS doesn't decay, i will eat my hat. So, lower the nose slightly to maintain a given speed. That IAS will remain constant, providing your not diveing at the ground. It will not accelerate. That is one of the ideas behind flaps, they increase lift and drag and allow you to approach steeper without an increase in IAS.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Turbs, of course they are going to get throttle on, they are useing throttle for speed, the sink is airspeed related. Windshear by definition is sudden changes in wind speed or direction. The pilot has his hand on what will fix the problem.

 

 

[djpacro]

I want to see them instantly, and MOST importantly, subconsciously, get on full throttle.

Yep, I still like the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook. Its also a similar situation to a bounce upon landing a Decathlon which is where the Warrior pilots normally fail to take any action.

 

It seems people are saying that you have to do elevator OR throttle when really on approach you're constantly doing a combination of both.

I think you have it, Darky.I should have mentioned earlier that Jacobson references Langeweische's books - I must get back to my reading.

 

 

[turboplanner]

So we can all blame Mazda?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Turbs, I agree about the voids thing. But its also a pretty big no no to create doubt in a young students mind. Darky is being taught by a qualified instructor. Who is teaching the same techniques that most other schools are teaching. Please stop telling her she, he, and the rest of us are wrong. Doubt and uncertainty are not a good thing for a student.

 

 

[octave]

From The FAA Airplane Flying Handbook

 

The objective of a good final approach is to descend at

 

an angle and airspeed that will permit the airplane to

 

reach the desired touchdown point at an airspeed

 

which will result in minimum floating just before

 

touchdown; in essence, a semi-stalled condition. To

 

accomplish this, it is essential that both the descent

 

angle and the airspeed be accurately controlled. Since

 

on a normal approach the power setting is not fixed as

 

in a power-off approach, the power and pitch attitude

 

should be adjusted simultaneously as necessary, to

 

control the airspeed, and the descent angle, or to attain

 

the desired altitudes along the approach path. By lowering

 

the nose and reducing power to keep approach

 

airspeed constant, a descent at a higher rate can be

 

made to correct for being too high in the approach.

 

This is one reason for performing approaches with partial

 

power; if the approach is too high, merely lower

 

the nose and reduce the power. When the approach is

 

too low, add power and raise the nose.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbs, I agree about the voids thing. But its also a pretty big no no to create doubt in a young students mind. Darky is being taught by a qualified instructor. Who is teaching the same techniques that most other schools are teaching. Please stop telling her she, he, and the rest of us are wrong. Doubt and uncertainty are not a good thing for a student.

I told her where she could get a copy of Stick and Rudder cheap, which was her question - I don't believe she can go wrong if she follows that.

 

I don't agree that "most" schools are teaching the "throttle is speed" elevator is altitude - I'd say it is the reverse.

 

There is also a possibility we are all saying the same thing, just describing different sections.

 

I'd be giving the flick to any instructor who told me to pull the stick back to stop falling below the glide slope, push it forward to stop rising above the glide slope, open the throttle to go faster and close it to go slower.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

When you were doing your instructor rating, what did they teach you to teach??

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Push the stick foward, you go faster and the houses get bigger. Pull the stick back, you slow down and they stop getting bigger.

 

When you get real slow, the nose drops and the houses get real big again, real quick !!

 

So much for the stick/elevator being the up and down control.

 

As 'stick and rudder' states...."Throttle is the up and down control (altitude not nose), stick is the airspeed control "

 

IE: When you have lost the engine and are gliding there is no up available, except for a short time as in the above example. You do still have airspeed control by raising or lowering the nose with the elevator........Simple, who doesn't understand it ?? ........................................................................Maj

 

 

[Mazda]

Turbo, aviation is something which teaches you to never stop learning. If you don't open your mind to ideas, if you already know it all, you can't ever learn.

 

I was initially taught as you were, and it wasn't until I was flying something of a reasonably high performance with an extremely good instructor that I realised I'd been doing it backwards. Believe me, I tried both ways, and the way that worked every time was to point the thing where I wanted it to go and control power with speed. And yes, that is what most schools teach these days.

 

The funny thing about more experienced pilots sometimes is they are not actually doing what they think they are doing. They'll tell you until they are blue in the face that they are flying an ILS using elevator for speed, but that is not necessarily the case.

 

Remember the two are linked. So if for instance you dropped below profile and kept the aircraft pointed at the aiming point, the speed would decay so you would add power. And for Qwerty, if you point the nose down and it starts to pick up speed, you would reduce power to adjust the speed. Easy!

 

For the knockers out there - if you don't take my word for it, or mozartmerv's, or djpacro's, or the RAAF's, or the RAF's, or any airline pilot's - don't knock it too much without trying it. It works on Gazelles, Citabrias, Tornados, 767s, there's no reason why it won't work for you.

 

Darky don't be concerned, what you are being taught is correct.

 

 

[facthunter]

Comment.

 

I don't have any disagreement with what octave has supplied from the FAA handbook about 4 posts back. A controlled constant angle approach requires power adjustments., except perhaps in very stable conditions.

 

You are using both elevator and power at the same time. That is, change attitude (with elevator) to get to the required approach path. If you are above it and lowering the nose, you remove a bit of power to stop the speed increasing. If you are below the desired path, you raise the nose and add a bit of power to maintain your airspeed.

 

The only times when you control the airspeed solely with the elevator is when the power is FIXED either at idle, and you are gliding, or when you are climbing and the power is SET.

 

What do you control the airspeed with in level flight? POWER..

 

Question.. You are in an aircraft that is stalling at low altitude. Would you rely on pitch alone to gain your airspeed and unstall the aircraft? Nev

 

 

[Spin]

Well if this is the level of discussion we can expect of this forum in the year ahead, I'll be spending even more time here - this is good stuff!

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

.....Qwerty, if you point the nose down and it starts to pick up speed, you would reduce power to adjust the speed. Easy!

Help. I don't pioint the nose anywhere, I dont care about the nose. I fly towards the threshold. If I am too slow (looking for about 60 on the dial over the fence) I push the stick forward. If I am too high, I side slip to lose a bit of height (because I already have the power off and this adds drag), If I am too low I give it just enough of a squirt to get me flying towards the threshold again, and then I go back to idle. As has been said by me and others here this is all happening at once together with a bit of rudder and crossed aileron and checking the sock and waiting for sink and countering turbulence etc etc.

 

I am missing something here about attitude and about the nose and about aiming the aircraft. I want to know what I am doing wrong.

 

Motzart, When I get the Jab back together I will do the trial and let you know what happens.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Facthunter, You are in level cruise at set power doing X speed.

 

You push foward on the stick without touching power, and the airspeed is going

 

to increase.

 

You pull back on the stick without touching power, and the airspeed will

 

decrease.

 

That is an example of controlling airspeed with stick.

 

Now you are in level cruise at set power doing X speed.

 

You increase power without touching the stick, you will climb.

 

You decrease power without touching the stick, you will descend.

 

That is an example of controlling altitude with power.

 

As suggested in 'stick and Rudder"...........................................................................

 

 

[motzartmerv]

David.. Actually, the RAAF teach that technique in CT4's, Pc9's etc.

 

 

[Mazda]

Sorry David. I know people who have flown Tornados, F/A18s, 767s, 737s, Chipmunks, Pitts and Citabrias, and while observing speed recommendations etc the approach is done in the same way. Instead of speculating, have you ever discussed this with people who may have done this?

 

Citabrias are not exactly difficult, landing a 7GCBC or 7ECA isn't rocket science. I'm sure anyone who has gone through the training to be a successful fast jet pilot wouldn't have a problem.

 

Maj Millard, ATC has told you to maintain the cleared level and increase speed. What do you do? I think you would be increasing power, just as students are shown to do in their second lesson - straight and level at various speeds.

 

 

[djpacro]

When you were doing your instructor rating, what did they teach you to teach??

Just found the hand-out from '94:"Adjust the attitude to ensure that your touchdown point is at the threshold of the runway. Maintain the airspeed with the throttle." We were using Cessna 152 and Warrior. My instructor for that course was a recent ex-RAF Phantom pilot. I took him for a spin in the Pitts - first time for him in a tailwheel aeroplane - he watched one of my landings and then did a nice one himself.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

qwerty. next time your flying your jab do something for me. Put it in a glide, lower all the flap, and hold the nose in a level attitude. As in for normal cruise level flight. If your IAS doesn't decay, i will eat my hat. So, lower the nose slightly to maintain a given speed. That IAS will remain constant, providing your not diveing at the ground. It will not accelerate. That is one of the ideas behind flaps, they increase lift and drag and allow you to approach steeper without an increase in IAS.

Motzart, I'm sorry, I'm a bit slow tonight. What you want me to do is incease the AOA by lowering flap (instead of using the elevator) and then prove to you that the air speed will decay???????? Isn't that what I've been saying all along, Isn't that what Turbo has been saying. Increase AOA to slow down???

 

Of course the aircraft will not maintain alt and speed without power but it will maintain speed with MINOR forward stick, but to point it at the threshold will result in acceleration, you will arrive ready for the flare at 90kn, even if you switch the fan off.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Mazda, Of course to comply with that request I would have no choice but to apply power. However to eliminate the resultant climb due additional speed over the wings, I would need to apply foward stick and/or trim foward, to maintain my level.

 

In each application of either applying power, or application of stick, there is by necessity a secondary application or adjustment required. This is from memory also covered adequetly in 'Stick and Rudder'. It is however the 'primary' resultant of each application that we have been discussing here...is it not ??

 

The main aim in establishing a stable landing approach, is to achieve and maintain a desired airspeed. By using stick to maintain our descent (altitude) profile, results in the airspeed changing with each application, and it would be anything but stable as required, particulary in 'slippery' aircraft types. On the other hand, gently applying or decreasing power to maintain or descent profile as and when required, should have a smaller effect on our total approach airspeed, allowing us to arrive over the flare point with our desired airspeed, or very close to it.