Stick & Rudder

[Tomo]

Use Both Methusala, there is no limit to how much knowledge one can get...

 

I've been reading through these Fly Better books, (as of last night, so haven't got real far!) and find they are very good, he explains the reasons for what he does, not just saying, do it this way it's better! He gives his reasons, he also covers all the other ways of doing various things.

 

Mazda:

 

I've been thinking about what I do on approach to landing, at the time it just sort of comes naturally to do whatever, and you don't really think about how your going about it, so I've gone back through some of my video's and watched my approach to landing, it seems I do the 'hold an aiming point and head for it' idea.

 

If you go to about the 2 min mark on this video, you can see one of my approaches to a dirt strip -

 

 

If I remember correctly, it was a glide approach, though with a tad of power added late finals to continue to the aiming point, (by listening to the original recording can hear it rev up for a sec). Didn't think much of it at the time, but it seems that is what I do.

 

So in that regard, we are using power to give one nice smooth (as much as the thermals permit!) approach. And use the stick to stay on your aiming point.

 

When gliding you approach with half brake, so you have a throttle as such to control you to the aiming point.

 

Jet engine's approach with power on, so they can adjust the approach aiming point without the lag caused by the turbine, also to allow the power necessary to give full reverse thrust once on the ground. (not real common anymore about reverse thrust inflight though)

 

So it makes a lot of sense now.... Though accurate glide approaches are a pleasure to do when done without a touch of anything, and you land where you wanted to!

 

"Aim the aeroplane at a point near the runway threshold and control the airspeed with power." :big_grin:

 

Though I will add! 'Don't' rely on your airspeed all the time... make sure you practice take offs/approaches using attitude alone. Because one day your not going to have an airspeed indication, and you'll still have to land it!

 

I took off the other day to discover I had no airspeed, (tube had come off from behind the Pito). I couldn't land on the runway that was left, so just did a circuit. I've been talking to a few pilots about it, and some freak out when you tell them... get to know your aircraft and it's ways. You'll find it much more comforting when something stops working.

 

"Attitude is everything!" "Altitude and airspeed are just secondary affects"

 

 

[metanoia]

Fly Better or Stick and Rudder? That's the flaming question I suppose. (Sorry about the language... not meant to offend, just for emphasis. Regards again, Don

I'm reading both - well, on and off. I prefer the Fly Better series. While there is wisdom in Stick and Rudder, I'm finding myself having to wade through too much verbiage, some of it quite dated, to get to it. Some things have changed in aviation education since Stick and Rudder that make some of the emphasis it puts on certain things obsolete.

 

peace

 

chris

 

 

[GraemeK]

I agree with Tomo - you can never read too much. There's nothing black and white in this flying thing, and coming at it from several different perspectives helps you to build an understanding.

 

Chris, I agree about some of the things in Stick and Rudder being dated - but what really amazes me is how much is absolutely still relevant, given the book was written 66 years ago, and only 40 years after the Wright brothers - when we were still learning about flight and aircraft.

 

 

[metanoia]

Chris, I agree about some of the things in Stick and Rudder being dated - but what really amazes me is how much is absolutely still relevant, given the book was written 66 years ago, and only 40 years after the Wright brothers - when we were still learning about flight and aircraft.

I think that the two world wars between the Wright brothers and Stick and Rudder did quite a lot to advance aviation knowledge in general, and the art of flying in particular.

 

Looking at book to of the Fly Better series - there's a picture at the bottom of pg 23 where they have marked a set of dots and a small horizontal line on the left hand side windscreen to aid trainee pilots in judging attitude, and in landing - keeping the aim point in the same place on the screen. This is something that I've thought about over the last few sessions of circuit bashing, as I don't seem to "see" what I'm meant to be seeing as yet.

 

 

[Methusala]

When I fly an approach I trim the a/c for my desired approach speed eg. 50kts. then I am free to watch what is happening OUTSIDE the aeroplane for about 100% of the time. Then if the aiming point moves up or down in my field of vision, I then correct this with power via the little lever on my left (just as Mazda does). This means that I don't have to sneak more than the occasional glance at my asi. If I where an instructor, I would teach my students that eyes focused on the world outside of the a/c are going to absorb more valuabe info than the other way round. My tuppence worth (but not out of ideas or convictions either). I do read and think widely about flying as self preservation has a high priority in my scheme. Don:thumb_up::thumb_up::thumb_up:

 

 

[GraemeK]

Pretty much the same here Meth - trim for 75kt in the Jab, then eyes outside for 98% of the approach (other 2% is just glancing at the ASI to make sure it's still 75).

 

 

[Tomo]

Sorry I'm going off track, but just interested in the approach speed you do there Graeme?

 

75kts seems pretty high for me, I haven't actually ever flown a 160, but I approach the 230 at 65-70, and the 120 the same. Even 60kts is ok is you're not loaded to the hilt.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

75kts seems pretty high for me, I haven't actually ever flown a 160, but I approach the 230 at 65-70, and the 120 the same. Even 60kts is ok is you're not loaded to the hilt.

I fly a 160 and do roughly 65-70kts on approach too, if I remember rightly (it's been 3 weeks since I've flown it )

 

 

[GraemeK]

We aim for 75 on the approach in the 160 - half flaps. I know the POH says 63kn over the fence, but that's what we're taught - maybe because we almost always have a fair crosswind component.

 

 

[BigPete]

If you come in too slow in the J160 it may well bite you. :yuk: It seems to drop quite quickly below 55 knots. I use an approach speed of 70 unless I'm alone and have very little fuel onboard, then I may come in at 65 (when conditions are smooth). 60 knots is too slow with the shorter wings.

 

regards

 

:big_grin::big_grin:

 

 

[GraemeK]

I fly a 160 and do roughly 65-70kts on approach

Ahh - that explains why I'm having so much trouble landing the b****rd then!

 

 

[Methusala]

Aircraft ranging in complexity from my Thruster to giant airliners that weigh hundreds of tons are equipped with aerodynamic trim systems. As far as I'm aware they all act on the pitch attitude of the plane and stabilise the airspeed. If this is so then why not accept that attitude is employed primarily to control airspeed? If any aircraft is trimmed to an airspeed and power is added without adjusting anything else what do you think will happen? The aircraft will climb. No change in stick (ie elevator) position and it will maintain the trimmed airspeed.

 

The reason that I think it is important to keep hammering this point is that when things start going wrong, academic learning or information processing gives way to conditioned reactions. If a novice, say, on 1st solo finds that the engine stops (this does happen) he/she may spend time chasing airspeed with the attitude lever and forget the cardinal rule - fly the airplane. The alternative is to trim for airspeed and then spend the rest of the time trying to land in one intact piece.:thumb_up::thumb_up::thumb_up:

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Ahh - that explains why I'm having so much trouble landing the b****rd then!

If that doesn't work, try a cushion

 

 

[GraemeK]

try a cushion

Yep - I need one of those - under the wheels!

 

 

[Tomo]

Ahh - that explains why I'm having so much trouble landing the b****rd then!

It very well could be... if your not good at sitting around holding it off the ground for most of the runway waiting for it to slow down, coming it to fast isn't ideal.

 

Sorry, I didn't realize you were still learning when I asked the original question, I don't want to go against your instructor, and I'm no instructor myself, but I honestly think that's a bit fast.

 

Reasons:

 

For an experienced pilot who can afford to hold it off for a longish period it's all good, but in my opinion, people learning to land whilst holding it off just above the deck is a hard thing to do for even a short time, let alone an extended period. 5kts is a fair bit, about 9klm an hour - running speed almost. So to get rid of that you have to sit around for that bit longer washing it off, and you say you have fairly common cross winds, so holding it off for an extended period is even harder for someone learning in a cross wind.

 

Please forgive me for criticizing your technic, but if you don't mind can I say just a little more?

 

Once again I haven't flown the 160 yet, but I'm sure it'd have similar similarities as the 200, 230, and 120's I have flown. And I'm no instructor.... and am only a newish pilot myself.

 

Coming in fast is ok if you don't hold off much and just land, aircraft still has flying speed (GA landings we call them), but the problem with that is, the aircraft can still fly, right, so if you touch down anything other than smooth, (the aircraft weighs at that point in time probably - in relation with gravity and the ground - next to nothing, would it not?) So it will bounce very easily. Also another factor with trike (conventional) undercarriage is that the rear wheels you touch down on are aft of the Centre of Gravity a little, or pivot point if you like. So touching down with flying speed (wings still creating lift) a little to hard will not only have a very springing action back into the air, it also forces the aircraft ever so slightly forward (AoA decreases), so your in the air with less AoA than you started with, and will drop quickly, repeating the process if not pulled up quickly.

 

Now, if I may, coming in half flap, (or stage one) is in my opinion the recipe for a hard (to do) landing if your approach speed is fast. Why? Flaps are there to create more lift when at a slower speed, and they also create drag which helps you slow down. Now if we approach to fast with first flap, what are we doing? First flap will give you more lift, but hardly any drag, a little but nothing dramatic. (Why would you take off with first stage of flap if it causes a lot of drag?) So into ground effect we go, with the aircraft giving great lift but we just slip along with the airspeed slowly dropping down because it's still pretty aerodynamic. Yes the aircraft will stall at a higher airspeed without the extra flap, but it's not much.

 

Full flap when you pull/switch it on, you have to push the nose down to maintain your airspeed, why is that? We suddenly have drag, also lift, but a lot of drag as well, so to give less drag you have to lower the AoA of the wing, just to maintain forward speed. It also gives you a great view out the front. The benefit of that is, when you flare, the aircraft transitions from a lower AoA of the actual wing, to a high AoA, which does give you lift, but a lot more drag is ensued as well, so you slow down quite rapidly. Which in the long run you won't float for to long.

 

Land as slow as possible, (with the stall horn squawking is good) the wing is creating less lift, so if you touch down a little heavy (they will handle quite a lot) it can't fly no more, and it's not as likely to bounce back into the air. Unless you stalled at 5ft or so. People don't like stalling it on if there is a bad cross wind, neither do I... so that is when you level out and touch down gently, still with not much lift left, but at a lower AoA so it's less likely to be a big sail against the wind.

 

When you fly tail wheel aircraft on (front wheels only) the aircraft is still at flying speed (or the wings still creating lift) so what is generally done to stop it bouncing into the air again, is you 'check' the stick forward a bit as soon as the wheels touch, that lowers the AoA of the wing so it can't fly, and it will hold the wheels on the ground. That's not really possible in a Trike type undercarriage, (you can a bit) but it's not ideal if you slam the front wheel down accidently.

 

Anyway just realized I've gotten a bit long, sorry if I'm not making sense... And Instructors please intervene if I'm on the wrong track.

 

Ps. I don't know what speed would be best, but I find 65-70 pretty good, lightly loaded, 65 or less is even better to stop it floating away on you, in my experience.

 

 

[GraemeK]

Thanks folks - might try a little slower - although the landings are good ATM .....

 

 

[Tomo]

If any aircraft is trimmed to an airspeed and power is added without adjusting anything else what do you think will happen? The aircraft will climb. No change in stick (ie elevator) position and it will maintain the trimmed airspeed.

Can I comment on this a bit Methusala?

 

The aircraft 'will' climb if power is added, but the reason it will climb if nothing else is changed, is because of it's speed change as well. Not because of the trim. The trim keeps the aircraft at an attitude, like you said, adding power will increase speed, thus lift, and you will climb a bit, but only because of the increase in speed. To maintain speed, you have to alter your attitude or AoA if you like. To which you will climb or descend quicker and more efficiently.

 

If we use a straight and level situation, you are cruising along at 100kts, all trimmed out and what not, and you decide to climb up a bit, so you add power only. With that extra speed you now have, the wings will start creating more lift, thus you will climb, but your speed will not be a constant it will undoubtedly be increased.

 

Hope that makes sense,

 

The trim in my understanding, maintains the aircrafts attitude only, not speed.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Tomo. So the aeroplane speeds up when the angle of attack is increased??...Your deffinatly going over my knee when i see you.

 

 

[Tomo]

No it doesn't Merv... and sorry if I said that, but I need you to tell me where I did.

 

 

[Methusala]

Thomo, When the aicraft is flying straight and level at trimmed speed what happens when you open the tap is that the nose immediately rises! I know this because I have done it often. When, alternatively you close the tap, it falls.

 

If the nose rises it is logically impossible that the airspeed will increase. In fact, the a/s remains constant and the aircraft will climb. Notice that the sequence is - nose up - climb and nose down - descend. If you wish to increase the a/s as you add power you will have to push forward on the stick. It seems then that the way to alter airspeed is to alter the attitude. It follows that adding power will have the primary effect of increasing altitude.

 

It is always possible to do things the other way round as indeed other posters here have said. This seems to relate to the heavier end of the industry, military and transport. Machines in this sector are also landed by flying them on. The only relevance is to show that light aircraft can operate to different rules. However the laws governing how a thing flies remain unaltered. Don

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

It is always possible to do things the other way round as indeed other posters here have said. This seems to relate to the heavier end of the industry, military and transport. Machines in this sector are also landed by flying them on. The only relevance is to show that light aircraft can operate to different rules. However the laws governing how a thing flies remain unaltered.

Just to clarify, are you saying that power for speed, elevator for attitude can only be used in heavier aircraft, in light aircraft it is always power for attitude, elevator for speed? :confused:

 

If so, I disagree since I fly a Jab and use power for speed, elevator for attitude and it seems to work...

 

 

[flying dog]

Ok, time for me to butt in......

 

I've only read a couple of the posts in the thread - the latter ones.

 

My take on the workings:

 

When I was learning to fly I was told these two things:

 

1: Speed is controlled by your attitude.

 

2: Rate of climb is controlled by the power.

 

So if you want to go faster you push foreward on the stick. This increasese your speed. Secondary is that you lose altitude.

 

To counter the secondary affect, you add power.

 

Likewise if you want to climb, you increase power. The secondary affect is increase in speed - initially.

 

As the plane starts to climb, the speed is lost as the energy is used in the climb function.

 

Ideally, once trimmed, if you want to climb, all you do is add power and let the plane climb. When climbing is complete, reduce power to the original setting and the plane will level off. A slight adjustment may be needed because of the higher altitude and less dense air.

 

If you want to reduce altitude, pull back on the power. When finished descending, re-apply power and the plane will level off.

 

 

[Methusala]

Of course the elevator controls the pitch attitude of an aircraft. And the trim system is designed to alter the "rigging angle" or difference between the AoA of the wing compared to that of the horizontal stabilizer. This is used to set the trimmed speed of the a/c in flight.

 

Adding power may be used to increase the airspeed but only if a corresponding change in the AoA is commanded through the elevator circuit. You cannot climb for very long by simply pulling back on the stick! Don

 

 

[flying dog]

Darky,

 

As true as your statement is, I strongly STRONLY suggest you check if this is the best way to do things.

 

Although what you say happens, you are not seeing the bigger picutre and it is possibily developing bad habits.

 

All planes fly by the same "rules"/truths.

 

Light planes seem to "cheat" these rules only because they are small - obviously.

 

Could someone please confirm what I said before - as I don't want to be telling porkies either.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

You cannot climb for very long by simply pulling back on the stick!

And therein lies the problem I think, we seem to be (once again ) getting stuck into 'one camp or the other' and forgetting that when we fly we use the throttle and the elevator together to do what we want.

 

In my mind, power controls speed, elevator controls attitude. Ok, cool. But when I'm bashing along at S&L, if I want to do something, say climb or descend, I don't just move the stick and hope for the best, I move the stick and alter the power accordingly to what I want to do - I use them together to achieve my aim.

 

For example, if I want to descend, I use the stick to lower the nose and adjust power so I don't end up hurtling towards the ground at a ridiculous amount of knots. I know I'm comparatively inexperienced in this whole flying caper, but I'm not sure how that approach is wrong... :confused: