Fly it on or Stall it on...?

[Tomo]

Ok, At the risk of splitting the GA or Higher powered aircraft group from the RAA or lighter powered group. My question is, Do you fly your aircraft onto the runway, you know, minimal hold off, touch down with flying speed still. Or do you Stall it on, keeping the thing off the ground until the sticks pretty much all the way back, stall warning squawking, high nose attitude etc...?

 

Just interested in hearing your opinion. Once again It isn't a do it or die situation... but tell us what you do, and why you do it that way.

 

:big_grin:

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

It depends on the wind, or more accurately how gusty the wind is. If its crappy I wheel it on and the crappier it is the faster I am. Then I paste it there with a healthy dose of forward stick. If its still I like to land tail wheel first and then try and keep the mains off using throttle. Heaps of fun in the Lightwing, the Jab is getting a bit of a work over righ now and should be ready for practicing anti-wheelbarrows soon. :rilla::mulie:

 

Cheers, Qwerty

 

 

[Tomo]

If its still I like to land tail wheel first and then try and keep the mains off using throttle.

And who didn't like putting to much pressure on the tailwheel while taxiing!?!

 

 

[eastmeg2]

The CFI I learned with was always adamant that the best way to land was to stall it on in any conditions and my scariest moment of flying was trying to land using the stall-on approach with reversing crosswinds and rotor. Ever since then I've used the "fly it onto the runway" technique if there's any wind particularly at small dirt strips surrounded by trees as it provides the extra control needed to counteract rotor and turbulence.

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Oi, you two..... there is almost no weight on the tailwheel during one of my anti-wheelbarrow landings, it is infact difficult to either keep the tail on the ground or to avoid landing the mains. It is lots of fun though.

 

 

[Tomo]

Yeah I know Qwerty, just couldn't resist!!

 

I done it in the Drifter... pretty fun as you say... just got to be careful not to smack it on.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

So Querty, what did you do to the Jab ?? praytell.......................................

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Hi Eastmeg,It would be interesting for us 3 axis boys as to how a Trike behaves on landing particularly in crosswinds and gusts and whether or not they will float much and how you hold them off .. or not hold them off.

David

Hi David,

 

I've found that in really difficult conditions it's best to fly the trike down to the threshold and then fly along the strip just a couple of feet off the ground with sufficient speed to maintain control for the conditions, until a moment is found when the trike base stabilises and then put the wheels on the ground, dragging the tails wheels first to straighten up before landing the nose wheel if there's still significant yaw.

 

However, in low-wind conditions and at big and open airports I still enjoy the stall-on technique.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[Tracktop]

OK correct me if I'm wrong ( like that ain't gunna not happen :clown: )

 

Stall on is harder to do / learn

 

Stall on gives slowest ground contact speed so

 

Less tyre wear

 

Less roll out distance to stop

 

Less effect if surface is rough

 

But also less control in rougher air

 

I do use both but then I'm just a beginner

 

 

[Tomo]

The CFI I learned with was always adamant that the best way to land was to stall it on in any conditions and my scariest moment of flying was trying to land using the stall-on approach with reversing crosswinds and rotor. Ever since then I've used the "fly it onto the runway" technique if there's any wind particularly at small dirt strips surrounded by trees as it provides the extra control needed to counteract rotor and turbulence.

Yes, and that's what triggered me to ask this question. Some are so adamant about stalling it on all the time, while I tend to do whatever depending on conditions. Though I almost always stall the Drifter on, because flying it on (wheeler landing) is easier said than done in them things!

 

 

[Tomo]

OK correct me if I'm wrong ( like that ain't gunna not happen :clown: )Stall on is harder to do / learn

 

Stall on gives slowest ground contact speed so

 

Less tyre wear

 

Less roll out distance to stop

 

Less effect if surface is rough

 

But also less control in rougher air

I'm pretty much just a beginner also, but from my knowledge thats pretty much it.

 

I'm not sure about harder to do though... I don't find it that hard, but less control in rougher air is probably what makes it feel harder. Not much chop in a stiff crosswind though, by the time you've held off you'll be half way down stream!

 

 

[deadstick]

During my military training there was always two trains of thought with the QFI, some would like you to positively smack it on the ground and others would like you to hold it off. I personally like to hold off in the flare but it does show up your crosswind handling technique and skill. The only hard landing I had in the PC9 was at night holding it off and having my peripheral flare cues a little to high causing a 4 G landing, I remember the chuckle over the intercom from the seasoned RAAF Herc pilot/QFI " the wheels are still inflated- continue". With the lower inertia of the RAA beasts I tend to fly it on in gusty conditions and add half the gust factor to my threshold speed as a buffer should I need it. In light conditions I am on the factory numbers over the fence and let it wash off in ground effect before Touch down.

 

 

[Tomo]

That's my two cents worth ... but I am not an instructor .... what does your instructor say?

David

Thanks Dave, thats great... just because you ain't an instructor doesn't mean you can't pass on experience! :big_grin:

 

My instructors don't really mind what I do... any which way. I do prefer the stall on method myself.

 

keep up the discussion, its great!

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

So Querty, what did you do to the Jab ?? praytell.......................................

Are you really interested, its a bit of a marathon??

 

 

[Guest check-in]

My two bob's worth. Transport aeroplanes are flown down final at 1.3 times the stall speed plus additives for wind and gusts. If there is no wind, or a steady wind up to 10 knots, the usual additive is 5 knots. So for example if the stall speed was 100 knots it would be flown in steady conditions at 135 knots. At the 50ft point the power/thrust is removed, a slight flare is made to fly level with the ground and it goes on - the speed still being somewhat above the stall - typically 20%. Because of their inertia characteristics, stability etc transport aeroplanes are very easy to land accurately. The reasons why transport pilots are not allowed to indulge in a 'hold-off' to stall it on are two-fold - floating above the runway means no braking is available (and the landing distance is certified based on wheel braking, not reverse thrust) and also the long fuselages of typical transport aeroplanes are prone to tail-strike if the pitch attitude is allowed to increase too much in the flare.

 

Bugsmashers are quite different and demand a different technique. 1.3 x the stall is still a good approach speed for most types and will keep you out of trouble even in quite gusty conditions because lighties respond almost instantaneously to a burst of power if needed. To keep life simple in the Sonex, I use 50 knots solo and 55 two-up, power-on, full flap and drive it down to about 10 feet, then take all the power off and make it fly level with the ground ideally at about a foot above the ground (a 'hold-off' yes, but only 1 ft above the ground). Because of the draggy flaps it soon washes off the 5 to 10 knots to reach stall and touches down on all 3 points or sometimes the tailwheel just beats the mains, which is good because that fairly much guarantees that it has stalled and will remain stalled.

 

From where I sit in my office I often see high-wing Cessnas come in at excess speed and start a hold off at 10 to 20 feet, floating forever until they obviously stall and mush on somewhere about a third the way down the runway. If this is being taught, it is a worry because once the aeroplane is stalled too far above the ground it is out of control, prone to wing drop etc.

 

But yes, lighties should be stalled on, from a very very low height. To my way of thinking there are two heights to stall at - above 3000ft and below 3 ft.

 

I even advocate three pointers in a cross wind (well until you get up into the bigger Cessna 180/185 class anyway) because you want to be slow when you are on the hard stuff, not fighting with keeping it straight, getting the tail down, needing to brake etc because you came in too fast. Done properly, most three pointers don't require more than the merest dab of brake at the end of the landing roll, so that's good for reducing wear and tear as well as the 'pucker' factor if the brakes fail or you are on wet grass.

 

Proper technique in a light nosewheel aeroplane is not much different to three pointing a taildragger; just a bit more forgiving if not done exactly right.

 

I can think of no sound reason to fly a light single aeroplane on above the stall, unless deliberately doing a wheeler landing in a taildragger.

 

If some landing gear component does break, or a cow gets in the way, better at 30 knots than at 50.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Although I've no formal 3-axis experience it's quite apparent that 3-axis requires a different approach to landing in difficult conditions than Weightshift trikes do. I'm just not sure that trike landing techniques should be discussed in this thread as the original question was clearly about 3-axis, so throwing weightshift techniques into the mix will probably just add confusion.

 

But, I will list the obvious differences of weightshift trikes:

 

1. No vertical or horizontal stabiliser to get blown sideways/up/down during the landing roll.

 

2. Wing that can adjust Angle of Attack independently of the undercarriage. Can quickly change to zero or even slightly negative angle of attack upon touchdown.

 

3. Very strong undercarriage, including the nosewheel. Have heard 6g landing capability mentioned, for the Airborne trikes I'm familiar with at least. Not that I intend to test it.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[Tomo]

Hey Glen, it is Ok with me if you'd like to tell us what you weight shift pilots do... just mention it is weight shift, otherwise we could be a confused bunch.

 

I myself would be interested in hearing how you guys do it.

 

 

[Tomo]

Are you really interested, its a bit of a marathon??

I got me water bottle, packet of mints, and.... a stump to sit on...

 

 

[turboplanner]

Are you really interested, its a bit of a marathon??

Yes,we won't tell anyone.

 

 

[Admin]

This thread got a bit side tracked so with Qwerty's request those Posts have been moved into a new thread :big_grin::

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/general-discussion/69601-qwertys-thread-fly-stall.html