ADSB Radar Box

[Admin]

Have a look at this new product that Clear Prop now has - with ADSB coming in :confused: the opportunity to track aircraft is going to be interesting. Currently this new product is mostly for the enthusiasts and spotters etc but personally, if we see ADSB arrive in our lifetime, I see it as going to be a great tool for clubs and schools but in the mean time it could be fun:

 

For Pilots :: Flight Planners/Tracking :: AirNav RadarBox - Aviation Pilot Supplies Shop | Flight Gear | Aircraft Instruments

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Excellent stuff, so for $785, a camel person with an RPG can now easily identify aircraft full of infidels. I'm not installing ADSB.

 

 

[Admin]

Where did you get the $900 from Qwerty? - it is $785

 

 

[skybum]

Excellent stuff, so for $900, a camel person with an RPG can now easily identify aircraft full of infidels. I'm not installing ADSB.

QWERTY, as opposed to a timetable and an airband receiver?

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Yep they can track them anywhere, anytime in real time so they can fire their RPG from anywhere in the planet. The thing here is real time info.

 

 

[Admin]

I see it as having potential to watch training aircraft in the training area or students getting their solo time up...things like this

 

 

[skybum]

Yep they can track them anywhere, anytime in real time so they can fire their RPG from anywhere in the planet. The thing here is real time info.

I say again ...as opposed to a radio and a timetable...where is a RPG efective? On short final when you are within 1000m. Why would a person of questionable intent want to knwo where an aircraft is 250nm away in "Real Time" when his device is only effective over a short range. Get Real, QWERTY! Why blame a peice of tech when a set of binos or a telephoto lense and a radio is all the disguise you need to get close enough for a shot.

 

 

[skybum]

Ian...mate. Exactly! The tech has more benefits than what the detractors wish to throw at it.

 

 

[Guest Pabloako]

What an excellent gadget to go with my other collection of gadgets.... I am going to start saving for one of these! :-) Thanks for the info!

 

 

[Admin]

Imagine the benefits in cross country training as well where you can actually play it back to the student including their altitudes and speed when they return for further training discussion - I just realised that it even works with Mode S transponders now.

 

Now I just need to fit a transponder on my wife so I can track her every move (including altitude)

 

 

[pudestcon]

Now I just need to fit a transponder on my wife so I can track her every move (including altitude)

Did you mean 'Altitude' or "Attitude"

 

 

[sain]

Personally I think the whole ADSB thing is pretty badly thought out, and ignores some important security concepts, such as authentication and non-repudiation.

 

At the moment there is very little stopping somebody broadcasting an ADSB signal of say a 767 on a direct course with some important looking building. Or multiple 767s on courses for multiple buildings. Or a Cesna 152 doing beat ups down mascot's runways... or any number of similair things. It wont be long before the ADSB system becomes untrustworthy.

 

With some cryptographic smarts built in to the system each transponder could sign its outbound signal - essentially defeating that sort of attack. Yes there would be some infrastructure costs (certificate servers), and some pain maintaining the certificates, but it would give you some degree of assurance that the signal you are seeing is actually a valid one.

 

anyway, time to get off of my soapbox.

 

apologies for the rant.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Sain: it is not a rant, you are right, this stuff should have been much more advanced; it's easy with todays technology at minimal extra cost.

 

However, I do not see RADAR going away in terminal areas, which includes the cities with high towers. So that mitigates the risk of such an attack as the RADAR and ADS-B (now in transponder mode rather than VHF?) won't agree.

 

 

[Guest sirius]

ADSB is an ATC surveillance tool. It may well replace radar as the next generation equipment. It is expensive and requires compliance with set performance parameters if it interfaces with Airservices equipment. The bare minimum would then be ADSB OUT.

 

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Australian Technical Standard Orders (ATSO)

 

As an on board anti collision device it requires an IN/OUT function that would make the approved equipment out of financial reach of RAA aircraft in general. The best anti collision tool we have at present is mode C transponder which interfaces with both ATC and TCAS, (traffic collision avoidance system in most RPT aircraft). It is by it's nature a TSO'd item of equipment and necessary if we are granted the right to fly above 5,000ft and in class E airspace. Its use in CTR for us is academic at this stage.

 

There was a recent atttempt by a well known aviation representative organisation to support the mandate for its implementation based on an airy fairy subsidy that didn't come to anything. RA-Aus sensibly fought against it as a cost impost for its members.

 

As for "tracking" flying school aircraft check out;

 

SportAviation

 

They use a type of inexpensive "spider tracking" system that shows exactly where their aircraft are at any time of the day via a satellite system with a very user friendly hand held piece of equipment that goes with any of the aircraft fleet. It projects onto your PC in the office.

 

 

[skybum]

Sain, already done...each ADS-B equipped aircraft has an individual 24bit registraion that must be activated within TAAATS before the system sees you...the issue why some hate ADS-B..an accurate record of who you are and where you have been...landing fees , VCAs, taxes and future tolls...

 

aircraft to aircraft is different, no authentication like Ian's box. So would a spoofer go to all that effort and be discovered after one target conflict. ADS-B aircraft to aircraft is good for that 250nm. So you have a fake intercept. The target sees your fake intercept and imperceptably alters course to fly behind you from over 100 miles away...you now have to change course of your fake to regain the intercept...drastic manuevers in speed or direction because the aircraft is passing behind you...this is highly unusual in the aviation world. One call to airservices..they do not see your unathenticated transmission and your busted! Considering that a large aircraft is scooting along at better than 8nm a minute and your window of opportunity is only ten minutes at best before your spoofed signal fades on the target aircraft...is it really worth it. Spoofed signals in the terminal area are a waste because terminal radar hard paints everything out 50nm. outside 50nm and the big stuff is going to fast for your spoofing to keep up. Not to mention authentication if confirmation is asked for. So you are going to have fun with farmer brown in his lighty...gee what jolly fun to upset a puddle jumper...that will make the six oclock news...NOT!

 

And if this ever did happen? It would make aviation news around the world quicker than you could imagine and a hornets nest would be stirred up. Not to mention anyone operating an Rx unit would be extra diligent for "strange" aircraft that always attempt to crash into you. Why would you bother?

 

 

[skybum]

Sirius, that is patently untrue! The tech is maturing, the market is spreading and the gear is getting cheaper by the month. May I suggest you contact a local firm Enigma Avionics and see what they have got. A couple of local guys teamed up with a low cost GPS manufacturer and are doing it pretty good.

 

The subsidy was dead in the water before it got going...anyone remember the floor price for wool and what it did for quality? Now the manufacturers are meeting the market. Low cost and higher tech equipment than originally specified in the earlier position papers.

 

the biggest scaremongers have something to hide...Every one person I have met that doesn't support ADS-B uses the single issue of big brother as the route cause of their opposition. I haven't personnaly met Middo, but I believe he would fall into the same catagory...cost is not an issue anymore. You could spend as much money on a handheld non-tso GPS from a well known overpriced US manufacturer and would only be able to use it for VFR only advice.

 

Just want to add this link to an Enigma article

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Where did you get the $900 from Qwerty? - it is $785

Plus postage and handling:amazon:

 

 

[Admin]

Plus postage and handling:amazon:

Postage and handling is included in that price of $785 :big_grin:

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Sain, already done...each ADS-B equipped aircraft has an individual 24bit registraion that must be activated within TAAATS before the system sees you...

This is not a reliable way; I could eavesdrop on traffic, record valid IDs and I hack my ADS-B-out box to fake any ID.

What you need is to cryptographically sign your transmission so you can be sure that it was actually your box that transmitted it. See Digital signature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia But this scheme is hard to implement for aircraft to aircraft, as the receiving aircraft is unlikely to have an internet connection to retrieve the public key. Howver, there must be a better way than just trusting an ID sent in the clear.

 

 

[skybum]

I could eavesdrop on traffic, record valid IDs and I hack my ADS-B-out box to fake any ID

True, but then the aircraft you have harvested would have to be switched off on the ground to ensure no conflict. I could not see anyone ever being able to do this...we have asked Dick Smith incessantly to demonstrate his allegations for over six years now. It has never been done anywhere in the world.

 

The whole thing comes down to range and ability to interrogate and transmit your fake signals and have them believed by TAAATS...good luck:hittinghead:

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

True, but then the aircraft you have harvested would have to be switched off on the ground to ensure no conflict.

I am more worried about "denial of service" attacks for fun or profit (ransom), rather than impersonation of a particular aircraft.

 

 

[Guest sirius]

Sirius, that is patently untrue!

What is untrue?I have always been willing to embrace new technology and will be the first to hail the concept as a replacement for the existing radar if it will help me. Last I heard the Enigma gear did NOT meet the TSO requirements that I gave in the link in my previous post. Thus it is NOT approved to interface with Airservices Australia.

 

If it now does, I will fully support local manufacturing and their endeavours.

 

There is no such thing as a non TSO'd mode C transponder now. So why would Airservices or CASA allow any piece of equipment that can interface with theirs that can

 

be able to use it for VFR only advice

Tell me then, if the Enigma gear is TSO'd, how will it help me, and if cost isn't an issue how much can I expect to pay? (and don't tell me if I can't afford it I shouldn't be in the industry. The very reason I'm in RAA is because I can no longer afford the in private GA).You say

 

The subsidy was dead in the water before it got going

That is very astute of you in hindsight, given I was one of those howled down for suggesting such a thing was the case and I was a "scaremonger" (as was Middo).So please educate me.

 

 

[skybum]

Sirius..for your information

 

Model AT10-

 

ADSB-OUT – DO260A ADSB transmitter

 

Standalone ADSB OUT extended squitter [ES] transmitter with integrated DO229D GPS.

 

Simple installation – no need for interface to separate GPS source

 

 

 

or

 

 

 

Model AT10R

 

 

ADSB-OUT – DO260A ADSB transmitter /

 

 

 

 

 



ADSB IN.

 

 

 

 

 



Output:

 

 

 

 

 



- TIS/TAS [ARINC429]

 

 

 

 

 

- TA [Audio]

 

 

 

 

Standalone ADSB OUT extended squitter [ES] transmitter with integrated

 

 

 

 

 



DO229D GPS.

 

 

 

 

 



Integrated ADSB IN with TAS [ARINC429] MFD display interface.

 

 

 

 

 



Traffic Alerting [TA] Audio output.

 

 

 

 

 

Simple installation – no need for interface to separate GPS source

 

 

 

Go on...give them a ring and ask how much...

 

 

 

Certification is due for the end of this year Q4 2010.

 

 

 

If you want a certified bit of kit right now then I suggest- Contacting Pacific Avionics in Bankstown and ask them how much to fit a Trig TT31 transponder. Certified and ready to go NOW!

 

 

 

EDIT- WRT the subsidy or cross industry funding. Some considered this a deal breaker if it was not included...I concede to those who accurately point out a number of issues with regard to transfer of ownership, warrantee, tax implications...At the time everyone thought the price of a transponder would NEVER get below $30,000 and more than likely be airline only stratospheric prices...how wrong they were.

 

This was all in the atmosphere of a 2012 low level roll-out with associated decomissioning of en-route SSR radar.

 

 

Where RAA would fit in is around CTAF® and the ability to fly ABV050. Personally, I believe the best addition is a real time depiction of suurounding traffic. Others argue that you should be eyes out of the cockpit all the time. However, a chime and a look and then a GUIDED look out the window to detect an aircraft that is in conflict than having the aircraft appear from above and forward of your highwing or below your low wing. All it will take is a transponder with an output and any handheld device with the right fittings. GPS, PDA, even a mobile phone.

 

 

[sain]

Skybaum the issue isn't that it has a unique identifier, indeed thats a good start. However what they should have done is take that a step further...

 

Non-repudiation is about being able to say "that adsb transponder made the signal, and no other could have.". Without non-repudiation its pitifully easy to generate or duplicate a 24 bit identifier. Hell, the computer i'm typing on now can generate the complete number range of that 24bit identifier in a second or so. Its only 0 to 16 777 215 (about 16 and 3/4 millionish) after all.

 

In order to be non-repudiated the signal could be digitally signed - see Bas's link above. Its a really straight forward process thats been around for donkeys ages. Its cheap too.

 

The idea is that having a non-repuditated signal would limit the damage any signal transmitter can do to the trust thats placed in the system.

 

Think of it like this. A commercial airliner is flying along, minding its own business when its ADSB-in receiver starts saying "turn right for collision avoidance" "descend for collision avoidance" turn right for collision avoidance" "descend for collision avoidance" ad nausem. It wont take the pilots long to either a) decend far enough that they an interface with terrain, or b) (far more likely) turn the damn thing off.

 

What happens if you do that to an airliner in the queue to land at any major airport? What happens if you do it to two airliners landing on parellel runways, with one turning left for avoidance of fictional traffic and one right. Its going to get exciting awfully fast.

 

Anyway, i recognise that i'm presenting worst case scenarios, and the current system isn't much better. The thing to keep in mind though, is that the current system doesn't provide the position data - so the damage is limited by the limited functionality.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Sorry guys but your all missing the point. Non repudiation may be simple and nothing too high tech about it but it must be made to work in the SSR protocol, much of which dates back to a WW2 design. In otherwords all that addon stuff cant break a Mode 3 transponder that still wants to work just as a mode 3 transponder.

 

An analogy:-

 

1920 x 1080 TV is simple now and as such should be easy for someone to design from fresh correct?? Now make it a design criteria that I can get 1920 x 1080 and have it work with the old PAL analogue TV system without breaking (where breaking is no change at all in current behaviour or picture display) of that 10yr old colour TV system....Hmmm suddenly we have moved from simple to rediculously difficult.

 

Everything that you want in ADSB and more would be possible if the backwards compatibiltiy requirements were tossed and we started from fresh.

 

Andy