Bob's fun flight almost turns sour!

[Pete-the-Pilot]

 

• My friend Bob takes his Jabiru J-160c for a fun flight to YWSG and back. On his return he is confronted by a situation that requires him to land on the grass left of runway 06. As a bunch of 'cowboys', who should know better, just pull a glider across an active runway without proper lookout of radio surveillance endangering other users of the airfield and in particular the pilot on late finals. Very shabby stuff.
   
  

 

 

 

• Watch Now!
   
  

 

 

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

It's a big field seemed to be plenty of room for the Jab to me...i can't really see that they blocked the whole runway and hard to miss seeing a glider..................................

 

 

[winsor68]

I thought bob did not have to land on the grass... perhaps a go around if the runway was obstructed? I have heard a fair bit of griping about the glider operations at this airstrip on these forums...

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi, IMO i dont see a problem, its a wide runway. We all have to fit in with each other.(yes i do land and mix it with gliders at boonah most weekends).

 

 

[Guest wayland1]

Bob simply could have done a go around. Good practice and Bob would have found benefit from the experience.

 

 

[Pete-the-Pilot]

See and Avoid and communicate

 

 

Dear Wayland 1, Dazza 38, Windsor 68, Maj Millard, Kevin the Penniless,

 

 

Firstly, Yes Bob could have done a ‘go around’ and as a very experienced GA pilot Bob doesn’t need the benefit of any more experiences of a ‘go around’.

 

 

You don’t see a problem because you were NOT there and yes it is a very wide runway.

 

 

However runway width has nothing to do with good airmanship.

 

 

I did my basic training at Boonah and found all pilots at that field excellent communicators, and Dazza, if as you say, and you have mixed with the gliders at Boonah you will be very, very aware that those glider pilots are extremely cautious and courteous and the powered pilots reciprocate by using good, clear and concise radio communications --- one with the other and at all times all pilots are aware of exactly where each other is located --- in the air and on the ground, and this is achieved by good visual and radio communications.

 

 

Windsor 68, you didn’t think that Bob had to land on the grass, again you were NOT there to witness the event and YES Bob could have done a ‘go around’ but the point of my video and now my reluctant reply is to emphasise the importance of visual and radio communications to AVOID such situations.

 

 

Finally I note with some interest that you had “heard a fair bit of griping about the glider operations at this airfield on these forums…’ well maybe you are also familiar with the expression that ‘were there is smoke there is usual fire’???

 

 

In conclusion let me place before you the facts.

 

 

1. We are required to operate by the ‘see and avoid’ principle and to make radio communications that clearly make our intentions absolutely and unambiguously clear for all of our fellow aviators, both in the air and ON THE GROUND.

 

2. The glider to which I referred to in the video was towed from one side of the ACTIVE runway to the other side and at no time did anyone involved with this manoeuvre carry out either of the above requirements. How do I know?? Because I went and asked them, ‘did you see or hear the aircraft on finals and did you announce your intentions via radio that you were going to tow this glider across the active runway’ and to my horror the answer to both questions were “NO”

 

3. And what has incensed me to reply is the extremely off handed and dismissive replies and the apparent lack of understanding of what our responsibilities are to each other when it comes to our safety.

 

 

What Bob, I and all other responsible pilots require from all fellow users of all airfields is consideration and courtesy when using the same facilities, and one of the very basic courtesies and considerations are the same ones we all should practice before we enter an active runway is to ‘see and avoid’ and make the appropriate radio calls and to clearly articulate your intentions and to ensure our actions are not going to put others under unnecessary stress.

 

 

I trust I have now made my point – clearly and concisely.

 

 

May there always be smooth wind under you wings,

 

 

Pete-the-Pilot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

Pete refer to Rec Aus Operations Manual Issue 6, Section 4, 4.04:

 

"4 Landing Rule

 

"Aircraft on the runway has right of way.

 

"Go round again if there is not sufficient room to land"

 

There's even a little diagramme

 

http://www.auf.asn.au/opsmanual/4-04.pdf

 

 

[skeptic36]

I'm with Pete on this one, the glider had no intention of using the runway, it was only crossing it. It would be the same as if I, without looking, drove my car across the runway at Porepunka before they moved the road so it no longer crosses it (the runway). Sure it wasn't a danger for the Jab just poor airmanship on the part of the glider handlers.

 

Pete refer to Rec Aus Operations Manual Issue 6, Section 4, 4.04:"4 Landing Rule

 

"Aircraft on the runway has right of way.

 

"Go round again if there is not sufficient room to land"

 

There's even a little diagramme

 

http://www.auf.asn.au/opsmanual/4-04.pdf

Turbo I think figure 5 in that diagram is more applicable to the situation in the video.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Pete-the-Pilot]

Dear Turboplanner,

 

 

I thank you for your reply and especially the fact that you were able to understand and interpret the ‘stick drawings’ as set out in the RA-Aus ops manual, however that particular rule has absolutely no bearing on the case in point, this glider had NO intention of using the active runway in any other purpose except to use it as a shortcut.

 

 

It’s just a pity that you are unable or unwilling to understand the point of my comments.

 

 

They, the people in question in my video, have a legal, moral and ethical obligation to all other aviators to ensure that they use the area designated as the runway in the safest way possible.

 

 

I am certain that just hooking up your glider to a vehicle and dragging it across a very busy active runway is downright dangerous much in the same way as not making a ‘crossing a runway’ call at multiple runway airfields and without fulfilling your obligations to;

 

 

• Listen out to all calls from all aircraft in the circuit area and any aircraft that may be making a ‘intention’ call maybe joining the circuit, joining x-wind, joining downwind or a call from say 10/5 nm inbound call.
   
   
  
• Ensuring that you make visual confirmation that there are NO aircraft turning base, on final or perhaps another glider on short final, can the glider do a ‘go around?’
   
   
  
• And horror, how about an aircraft without a radio remembering that YCAB and any number of other airfields are NOT CTAF [R] airfields, so in that case do you suggest that their actions are justified because the pilot without the radio would never have heard their radio call anyhow??
   
   
  
• Do you just proceed onto a runway without 1. Making an ‘entering runway call. 2. And visually ensuring that it is safe to do so. NO!!
   
   
  

 

 

. Again let me attempt to put an end to this nonsense I do NOT wish to make a Federal case out of it, I just want others to understand that THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES USING THE RUNWAY, so LOOK, LISTEN and COMMUNICATE your intentions.

 

 

In the interest of the safety of all!!

 

 

Perhaps you should also read skeptic36’ comments as he appears to have a grasp on my intentions.

 

 

Now if you have no objections I wish to put an end to the ‘Comment tennis’

 

 

Pete.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

You must always be ready in aviation to quicky adjust your decisions , change your intentions due to unexpected situations, to be flexable at all times, and to always expect the unexpected. If you are going to be so rigid that you expect every little thing to be at all times exactly where you want it, then you also constitute a danger to other flyers.

 

So they towed the glider across the runway, get used to it !. We all get presented with situations like that every now and then, and we are required by regulation to adjust our flight profile to avoid conflict, or collision at all times. As Bob is, in your words (quote) 'a very experienced GA pilot' he appears to have had the ability to handle either a precautionary go-around, or a safe landing on the grass beside the runway.

 

Sounds like he chose the go-around, and that was his choice...he adjusted to the situation as required as PIC. Good show !.

 

If you personally have a problem with how the gliders handle thier operations, don't beat our ears to death on the subject, go and talk to them about it and get it sorted.......Up here in the North we have to watch out for them leaving their invisable launch cable down the center of the sealed runway, so we land on the grass, or the other runway. We've adjusted...................

 

 

[turboplanner]

Cool off Pete, I've been away

 

Depending on the activity figure 5 could be applicable, also CAR162 (5)

 

 

[Tomo]

I do kinda think some of you are taking it a little the wrong way...

 

An aircraft is on late finals, and someone starts moving an aircraft across in front of him.... think about it. Sure the pilot can adjust to accommodate it, you'd have to, unless you wanted to plow through him. But that's no the point, If they had taken a quick look on finals, (just as we do when entering and lining up) they would have seen him, and most probably have not gone across just yet.

 

Imagine if it were a lear jet on finals.... (and yes we get them at Dalby where there is gliding), do you think the pilot would be impressed if he had to go around? or could the glider/aircraft crossing the runway just wait a few seconds...?

 

The warning is not just to gliders, and I'm sure Pete wouldn't be out there to knock them... it go's to all aircraft/pilots alike, I believe it's called good airmanship, and accommodating others.

 

:thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Tomo, It is common knowledge that the glider boys don't often monitor or use radios as they should. The don't have electrical systems in the gliders, and their handheld batterys often go flat. Anyone familiar with the glider crowd over the years will know that. I find it hard to believe they didn't take a look up final. Did the Jab have a light on ?...they can be hard to spot front-on, due size and colour against white cloud.

 

Sounds like GA syndrome that we have discussed in prior post. IE: Make a radio call and expect everybody, and everything is going to just get out of your way. Doesn't always work that way in the real world. You have to keep your eyes out the window. The Darwinian theory....adapt or you don't survive.....We know that the glider boy should use/monitor the radio, but they don't...that's reality.........

 

 

[Tomo]

I do understand that, but even if they didn't have a radio.... you don't drive in front of a car on the road...! I guess it was hard to see the aircraft, and no doubt that must have been the case....

 

 

[winsor68]

"The warning is not just to gliders, and I'm sure Pete wouldn't be out there to knock them... it go's to all aircraft/pilots alike, I believe it's called good airmanship, and accommodating others."

 

I think perhaps we have taken the posting of the video the wrong way... It seemed to me that the video shows poor airmanship on both sides... and that one side was trying to use it to take a "swipe" at the other side.

 

Perhaps that was not Pete's intention? The internet has incredible power but also its limitations when it comes to communication.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I've done some additional homework, (slow, wet, windy cyclonic day) with the info available to me, as if I were to fly in there for the first time. Although I have flown over Caboolture, I have not landed there, but I am familiar with the place to a point.

 

My ERSA tells me the following:...It is a CTAF airfield not a CTAF® meaning I could operate there without a radio if I chose. However since it has manned balloons, gliders, UL training, parachute ops and GA/warbirds, and powered parachutes I would probabily be unwise to do so. If I did, either intentionally or unintentionally, I would certainly have my head on a swivel going in, as this certainly qualifies as 'bandit country'. ERSA gives 118.8 as the CTAF freq for my calls.

 

My VTC chart for the area tells me the following:....By symbols there are gliders, balloons, ULs and parachuting, and once again that it is a CTAF with 118.8 in use. I then go to the symbol section on the side, and by the glider symbol I find...Gliding operations..(gliders use and monitor frequencies 122.7,122.5,122.9)

 

This I find confusing and contradictory, (CASA..heads up !)and I would then call one of the Phone numbers supplied in ERSA, to try and acertain exactly what Freq the gliders actually use, if indeed they actually use any. If I was on the ground I would actually talk to them if they were present, prior to take-off, to get the same info. Failing that, anyone who is around may be able to give me their freq, or it may be posted somewhere, perhaps in the club house ?.

 

So I guess my point is, did Pete-the pilots' friend Bob, who is an 'experienced GA pilot' do any of the above prior to aviating, and would his arrival been more 'stress-free' had he done so ?. That is what I would call 'good airmanship'............................................................

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Its been a while since I've flown out of Cab but on that runway the centreline used to be very very rough so we used to takeoff and land on the grass..... hmm maybe thats what they expected him to do?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Adam, is that you with a new suodonym ????..........you can't fool us !!....................

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Its been a while since I've flown out of Cab but on that runway the centreline used to be very very rough so we used to takeoff and land on the grass..... hmm maybe thats what they expected him to do?

Centreline has had grit dumped down it now so its less rough but the L/R grass is still a better option (at least with a pusher prop).

 

Theres no doubt IMO that its wrong to pull a glider across a runway when a plane is established on final but, frankly, you got to expect the unexpected. On a decent weekend YCAB is possibly the busiest (& probably the most diverse) uncontrolled airfield in the country

 

Just this weekend my personal gripe list includes -

 

a Cherokee lining up on the runway and rolling whilst I was on very short final,

 

a Jabiru blocking the taxiway (presumably doing his pre-flight checks) in front of a student solo who was ready to take off but couldn't get past,

 

a powered hang-glider (a real one IE foot launched - not a trike Qwerty !) launching across the runway as we were doing a touch a go

 

A guy who turns his plane through 90deg so the propwash won't blow into his own hanger then starts the engine & sits there warming up for 5 minutes with another plane at most 30 ft behind him getting blown about.

 

All in all a pretty typical weekend really ! As much as we might prefer otherwise not everybody gets it right all the time - try to learn from their mistakes, smile about it and get on having fun with your own flying.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Yep this is me Maj, Got to keep running and changing names before they catch up with me!!

 

Cheers Crezzi has been a few years since I've been there and used to take the old Thruster in there No-coms... it was alway interesting and I always sent a couple of txt messages to find out what was happening when I was inbound!

 

YCAB is great for its varity but pretty intense for a newby!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Is Bob a newby?

 

 

[Tomo]

Now that we've established what the pilot should do....

 

What should the grounds people do to show good airmanship?

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

A couple of us fished out what regulations we could find. If a few more people have a look, the various scenarios could be discussed.

 

A further matter which makes you wonder is using two different frequencies for the one runway.

 

BTW, we know Bob is "an experienced GA pilot", my question should have read is he a newbie to Caboolture?

 

 

[Tomo]

my question should have read is he a newbie to Caboolture?

Please forgive me if I sound annoying... but!

 

What difference does it make if he's a newbie or not? You don't just drive/enter/walk/whatever across a strip with an aeroplane on finals... simple really.

 

I'm hoping they just couldn't see him in the distance... rather than forgetting to look at all.

 

Don't you agree.... :confused:

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I also, as I have said, find it hard to believe they didn't look before crossing, and yes it is possibly they did look, but missed seeing the Jab. That really dosen't change the scenero one bit, in fact makes it more obvious why the pilot on final must have his eyes outside, and be prepared to make adjustment as required, which is what he did. Often one has to operate at certain airports (Camden, Naromine and Temora come to mind) together with gliders in the circut, and quite often parked besides, and close to the runways.

 

Additionally often those gliders are pushed around and handled by non-aviation type people, who are just helping out for the day.

 

Anytime I have operated with gliders, I keep a real close eye on their movements both in the air, and on the ground.....The main runway at Caboolture is wide enough to accomodate mixed operations I would presume ?...............................................................................