Changes to the Training Forum - What do you think?

[Bidgee]

For those that havent noticed Ian has made some changes to the Training & Student Forum. Now only the OP and a select group can post in the forum.

 

I'm interested to know what others think of this. No doubt there are good reason why it has been changed but I think it detracts from the usefulness of the forum. If you are not one of the select group and you have something worthwhile to contribute you need to PM the OP. This means the info is not searchable and is denied to others.

 

For mine I'd be inclined to post training questions in the General Discussion so I'm able to receive comment from the broader community.

 

Thoughts?

 

Scott

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi Scott, i think that its a good idea,If people want to just get a straight answer from a instructor they can ask in the training/student forum.Students asking a question can always ask in the "general discussion" and get more of a variety of feed back if would like to.I guess they have another option now. Cheers

 

 

[Admin]

This thread will be great helpful debate for me in running this site for you...please say your thoughts on this

 

 

[facthunter]

Training forum.

 

It is specifically for students in the early phases of their training. With comments from all sources there is no way of checking (Quickly) whether the poster has credentials for the assertions posted, and as we know there are sometimes some quite personal responses made. Some enquireres from time to time have asked for an indication as to whether the poster is "qualified" ie is an instructor etc.. With the system that Ian has introduced, the chance of quite incorrect and sometimes dangerous recommendations being posted and possibly acted on, is pretty much eliminated. Nev.

 

 

[Guest Decca]

Scott's opening post here was well received by admin, good on Ian for encouraging such rational & mature debate as illustrated by Daz & Facthunter.

 

I've already said enough to be misinterpreted, so Scott I'll just cover myself here & say Ian does look for constructive criticism followed by healthy debate, and that's exactly what you've provided here, well done.

 

Regards, Decca.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Its all about options. Now there is another option for a student to get a clear answer. It does no good to have a long thread with people arguing a point, while the point gets lost in the telling. Or even worse, creating confusion.

 

There is a wealth of old school experienced pilot's on this site, whose experience and knowledge is invaluable to us all. However, The principles of learning have changed quite dramatically over the last 15-20 years. Learning sciences as a field of study only really gained acceptance in the late eighties. The "way" we teach these days is a reflection of that progress. One key principle of learning is to identify and account for factors that effect perception. If a students "perception" of information, of the instructor etc, is altered negatively it will greatly reduce his/her ability to learn. And could even end up being dangerous.

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

If you are not one of the select group and you have something worthwhile to contribute you need to PM the OP. This means the info is not searchable and is denied to others. Hi Bidgee .. FWIW, I'm certain that if you pm'd any of the "select group" with your worthwhile contribution it would be included into the training forum with appropriate attribution. In fact your input would be welcolmed. And if perchance there was a good reason not to include your input, that you would recieve a pm in return outlining the reasons why. Perhaps we should ask Ian to provide a link to each of the "Student Mentor" group at the head of the training forum to make that easier to do? ......

 

Speaking for myself, I put my hand up to assist in order to put something back into the recreation that I have enjoyed for most of my adult life, and I think that the intention of the training forum and its restrictions is to improve the quality of the information provided to people with genuine questions ... sometimes it is helpful to have a less formal discussion with experienced aviators who as a group might have a slightly different way of explaining things than does your instructor.

 

QUOTE ... For mine I'd be inclined to post training questions in the General Discussion so I'm able to receive comment from the broader community.

 

And thats fine, but realising that comment from the broader community may not provide you with the true answer to your training enquiry. I've seen this all the way through from my hang gliding days right up to only just recently in this web site. As a general rule, you have no idea of the experience and qualifications of the person replying .. and when was the last time you asked advice from someone with seriously less expertise than yourself? Unfortunately, uninformed or incorrect opinion can lead to the adoption by others of unsafe, even dangerous techniques and proceedures based upon a false understanding.

 

Its also true that sometimes the less formal forums get sidetracked by lighthearted and progressively further off topic discussions and comments, leaving the serious enquirer with no answer at all.

[pudestcon]

Hi Scott, i think that its a good idea,If people want to just get a straight answer from a instructor they can ask in the training/student forum.Students asking a question can always ask in the "general discussion" and get more of a variety of feed back if would like to.I guess they have another option now. Cheers

I agree

 

Pud

 

 

[ahlocks]

FWIW, I'm certain that if you pm'd any of the "select group" with your worthwhile contribution it would be included into the training forum with appropriate attribution. In fact your input would be welcolmed..

Now there's a positive solution! :thumb_up:

 

Its also true that sometimes the less formal forums get sidetracked by lighthearted and progressively further off topic discussions and comments, leaving the serious enquirer with no answer at all.

Guilty as charged...

 

 

[Guest skyspud]

A great medium for students to get answers, not opinions...

 

quote :rocketdriver

 

I'm certain that if you pm'd any of the "select group" with your worthwhile contribution it would be included into the training forum with appropriate attribution. In fact your input would be welcolmed. And if perchance there was a good reason not to include your input, that you would recieve a pm in return outlining the reasons why. Perhaps we should ask Ian to provide a link to each of the "Student Mentor" group at the head of the training forum to make that easier to do? ......

 

Another great idea, support from all sides with a quality filter...

 

skyspud

 

Go fast and take chances

 

 

[Tracktop]

Could the forum be moderated by the select group so anyone can post into the thread but that post won't appear to all until it has been accepted by one of the select group?

 

This would allow others to add their bit, and if appropiate it is then included.

 

The select group could also use the post, if it was incorrect in some way,

 

by including a correction and justification / clarification if they thought it was valuable. This would prevent the wrong message getting across and provide

 

useful training for all ( or lots anyway). It also allows the student to not only

 

get the right answer but also what is the wrong answer.

 

It is identified as the wrong answer ( hopefully early ) so further down the track it can be quickly discarded and not become an alternative option. It will no doubt be offered / thought about in the future

 

I have some problems with the current protocol -

 

a) a person who thinks they have an answer and are incorrect now live in ignorance

 

rather than posting and being corrected.

 

b) An incorrect reply sometimes starts and broadens the discussion to other

 

factors that may be unknown / misunderstood by the original poster

 

and other forum members - so some of the learning ( for all) capability

 

has been taken from the forum.

 

c) there are many others that may have worthwhile contributions to make that are now excluded.

 

I do agree the forum should be moderated though.

 

 

[Mazda]

It was set up to avoid confusion, but I agree others do have very worthwhile contributions to make.

 

"Student mentor" is already shown under the user name of those who answer the questions, so perhaps if that forum is opened again to everyone, the original poster could take note of comments of "Mentors" (who would most likely have similar views on most things anyway) as well as seeing the views of others.

 

If the mentors and many others agree on a particular topic, but there are a couple of wildly opposing views, the original poster could make an informed decision.

 

 

[djpacro]

cficare, I guess it was one of those things which wasn't 100% but not something that would be a real problem - when the action was taken by the person it would be sorted out at the time? Perhaps a reference to an authoritative source would be good as it is difficult to give a comprehensive correct answer here (for me anyway). If it was a more significant issue what do you think would be the best way of enabling your input?

 

 

[poteroo]

Must agree with cficare about losing interest when you can't contribute. It's human nature to retreat when rebuffed. I'm disappointed that it's taken this turn. I think the forums are going to lose access to a vast wealth of instructing and technical experience. Sorry - but it's thumbs down from me.

 

There will never be an absolutely correct answer to anyones' query, and one of the reasons that people like online forums is that there is a diversity in the responses. I believe that there are so few malicious posters that you can be certain of everyones' good intentions here. The answers may not always be 'correct' in the opinion of the moderators - but doesn't that then elicit reponses that more correctly answer the question?

 

happy days,

 

 

[facthunter]

Personal Instructor position.

 

I have always been concerned with the situation that occurs when students derive sometimes critical "GEN" (info) from a forum such as this, and have voiced that opinion many times. IF I was the instructor involved I would be concerned enough to want to know what advice had been given, and discuss it with the pupil. I would have no doubt of my capability to do this with confidence IF I was AWARE.

 

With the system that has been introduced, There is an attempt to "VET" the advice and all the persons involved would act responsibly to make sure that their suggestions were safe and not likely to cause angst. However a pupil that is having problems MUST keep the instructor in the picture. I am pretty certain that the "mentors" would agree with this. It is of course possible that the instructor is not doing a good job of instructing, and that a change may be beneficial. That is a hard one to judge.

 

I don't think that the people who have offered to do this job regard themselves as "experts" who are imune from error, but they have offered to do a job which will probably end up being a bit thankless, to the best of their abilities. I wish them well.

 

The good barney's I hope may continue outside this area, but I have found that saying what you mean without fear or favour, can ruffle a few "precious" feathers. Nev

 

 

[skeptic36]

Hi all,

 

I believe that if forum members where actively encouraged to show a more detailed list of qualifications and experience in there avatar so that people could add/detract value from advice accordingly you may not need to lock posters out of a forum. I think a prompt is being e-mailed out to new members to get them to introduce themselves, if a "starter pack" was included in this, advising new members to have a look at a persons experience before assigning value to the advice and above all if they are under instruction then their instructor should be their ultimate adviser.

 

The one problem I see with this is a few may post bogus qualifications. I don't see this as too much of a problem though because if they don't have the knowledge to back up there claims it will be clear to those who do when they deliver their advice, they can then be reported to the site police who can go round to their house and and then:no no: and after that:angry: and if that didn't work:mulie: or try this and as a last resort:kboom: but then we would have to:pope:

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Tracktop]

Bill I thought farmers were much more gentle -

 

more likely to drive their tractor over their front lawn :dousing:

 

 

[Bidgee]

I'm still not sure why there's such need to "vet" responses. I think we may overestimating the ability of a forum to influence the actions of people. Especially given that people asking the questions are mostly going to have somebody sitting in the right seat showing the "correct" way to do things.

 

What's the difference between somebody reading it on the forum and hearing it in the aero club?

 

The importance of good decision making is continually hammered into us during training. Surely as part of this most students will take any ideas from the forum and run them by their instructor before road testing them.

 

The other point is that "instructors" are not the final word on everything to do with flying. Experience counts for a lot and in many instances I'm more interested in hearing from the bloke with the hours than the bloke with the epaulets.

 

I'm with cficare, poteroo et al on this.

 

Scott

 

 

[Tomo]

I myself like the joint effort to posts... I'm with Mazda in that we can still all post our ideas, but just have the Mentors 'logo' known, like it is, it should work just the same. Then at least we can hear what others think.

 

And that way it is actually working both ways (two birds with one stone), as in, someone posts something that mayen't be correct, so someone who understands that will step in and can advise the correct answer (does cause topic drift sometimes, but is very worth while in my opinion, if it is a genuine topic).

 

Putting peoples credentials up isn't such a good idea I don't think, sure it will filter out the young new pilots against the old... but, we are human and everyone has a different way of seeing/putting it. I've learnt a lot from non pilots...! Seeing things differently and explaining something differently sometimes just makes a lot more sense from some others than what the other person could do, pilot or not. It could create hierarchy, people won't considers lesser credentialed pilots for the other "ones". When sometimes those higher up (have as many degrees as a thermometer) but no skills or different idea's, or maybe they are stuck with one way...

 

I've heard of a story of a CPL instructor use to instructing out of a city, on one type of aircraft, off a bitumen runway, to come out to the country, gravel strip, tree's on both ends and very high temps, heat thermals etc... just about kill his passengers by plowing through the trees, (was saved by a PPL pilot who was with him!), revving the engine to bits on gravel, pulling up on a uphill bit of gravel only to full power on his way with stones going everywhere, get bogged in soft soil because of running off the gravel etc....

 

Now, that person was a Commercial Pilot, instructing other pilots how to fly! and look at his skills... it was only one dimensional, he was limited to only one type of experience. But if you were in a room with him and the PPL pilot, which one would you want to ask, about flying out west and operating off bush strips? And which one would you talk to about when operating from a city? The one with 'all' the credentials, a commercial pilot! or the one with the experience in that particular area?

 

So I think we can learn from everyone and anyone, no matter their standards, and remember it is only an opinion of that person given from their experience, and knowledge.

 

You can't learn to fly by correspondence, and most people don't even try anyway... (but you can learn "about it" from correspondence!) asking a question about "how to land" for instance, will be given 25 pages of everyones way of doing it, probably 1 out of every 5 different. But it is a great learning experience for others to "tuck" that knowledge or experience from those other people in the back of your head. It might seem pointless for some to see something like that written out, but it is a chance for others to question why that person does that particular thing, or why do you do that? and they'll say because ..................... and so a discussion is developed.

 

Look at the "Clear Prop" thread for instance! some people think that is a rather silly thing to ask, but look at it! I bet everyone of you has gotten something new from it so far...?

 

Anyway I'm starting to rattle on a bit much... :ah_oh:

 

Ps, just noticed Bidgee's post, it seems we think similar.

 

 

[skeptic36]

What's the difference between somebody reading it on the forum and hearing it in the aero club?

Scott

Hi Scott,

 

There is considerable difference, because when you are talking face to face you can generally tell if someone is a person of substance or a self gratifier and often know the person. In the forum you can't see facial expressions and hand gestures so without written evidence of qualifications/experience you have no idea.

 

Also I think there is less danger of a student having problems than a low hour new pilot because the student still has the CFI on tap to bounce things off.( Not that we all shouldn't go back if we need some help or clarification.)

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I'm with Facthunter on this - there have been threads which have been very hard to imagine would have helped the OP & I'm aware of students who haven't done themselves (or their schools) any favours as a result.

 

The current system gives students a choice. If they have a question to which they would like a single answer from somebody who should have sufficient experience to do so accurately then they can post it to the training forum.

 

If they would prefer to choose from 2 dozen assorted answers with no guarantees about the experience or competency of the respondents then they are still able to post the question in one of the other forums and let everyone have a go.

 

If they choose the former, why should anyone else have the right to force their opinion on them. But it should be emphasised that the normal course of action should be to discuss any questions with their flying instructor /school.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest check-in]

I dunno whether I am allowed to respond in that forum or not. I see some of my stuff is there from old questions. Perhaps sufficiently-experienced (but not RA instructor rated) types like me could have an honorary title e.g. 'consumer warning - opiniated silly old git - take this advice at your peril'

 

 

[Vorticity]

If you are a student and you want one authoritive answer......let me think.....there used to be someone I went to...... could it be my CFI? Do we already have a medium for the exact thing this 'new' forum is created for?

 

or does that take away the oppurtunity for a small group of elitist members to block all those pesky poster out who may have differnt opinions to them?

 

If there is a group that wants to be the final word than put your bio out there. Otherwise you are still as annonymous as anyone else and your opinion should be taken with the same caution until confirmed by a students instructor.

 

For authoritive, personlised flying instruction see your CFI. To readily exchange ideas, opinions and rumours; hit the internet.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I rather like the idea of the student / mentor forum as I have noticed that a straight forward question often gets off topic quickly or people chime in with unsubstantiated opinion - "Yeah, sounds about right ..." when a reference to the relevant chapter and verse would be more accurate and helpful.

 

It also helps people find answers quickly when searching the forum - no need to trawl through lots of spurious wavering threads to find the gem hidden on page 4. There is always the option of using General Discussion to get a broader range of views.

 

The other thing I have noticed is the confusion between RA Aus pilot certificate and ppl requirements. In a lot of cases the answer will be the same, but there are times where a poster has asked a question and it hasn't been clarified or considered which stream they are in. An example would be a student asking about what ratings / endorsements are available once the licence has been gained. For ppl there is NVFR, IFR etc, but for RAA it is Pax endorsement, X-Country. At times the wrong question has been answered.

 

Overall the forums are well organised and I am enjoying the interaction. Well done to all!

 

Sue

 

 

[Admin]

Right...time to say my piece

 

But firstly just let me say that I have a huge project underway at the moment which is consuming more waking hours then I have so please bare with me if I am unable to quickly jump to attention and answer PMs, emails, threads etc however hopefully you will get to hear about this project in due course - it is not to do with this site - but it is for our industry.

 

The move to changing the Students and training forum was brought about by the results and comments made in the survey. There was a feeling that:

 

- Threads get sidetracked

 

- There is no way of knowing whether some information is accurate or not

 

- Students may not ask questions because they consider them stupid and may get put down by others

 

Some comments good and bad were:

 

The Question on Quality:

 

[ATTACH]9784.vB[/ATTACH]

 

The Question on Safety:

 

- Some discussions are scary. The one in intentional spins in jabiru was rediculous and could prove dangerous if read by easily influenced students.

 

- I sometimes think that the forum posts are a bit off topic ... trying to impress by their "cleverness" rather than addressing the point of the topic

 

- A dedicated instructor column. ie, "why does this happen mr instructor" or "what am I doing wrong?" Tony Hayes was brilliant at moderating those types of discussion

 

- Articles from people who know what they are talking about when it comes to flying saftey.

 

- try to encourage some posters to take it easier on others whose opinions differ from theirs.

 

- I worry that too many ideas and info that is posted by obviously inexperienced pilots is taken as the right thing to do by even less experienced pilots

 

The Question on Flying Skills:

 

- Steady up....the site is a forum....not a flying school. There is both good and wrong advice offered. Reader beware.

 

- perhaps a few tips and techniques posts from some of the instructors who frequent.

 

- access to instructors for an opinion

 

- encourage mentoring ???

 

- It is already good with the training section of the forums, people can share experiences and knowledge.

 

- Pass. (would need to do a PHD thesis in order to respond effectively to this question)

 

- Again, draw in people who have the appropriate tutorial skills and currency.

 

- Too much wrong advice been given by people with little experience,which can set a dangerous precedent to inexperienced pilots

 

- incourage more cfi's to give imput like motzartmerv does and tony hayes did. rip Tony.

 

- the knowledge of the people on this site is invaluable keep them contributing

 

[ATTACH]9785.vB[/ATTACH]

 

Now ask yourself what would you do if you were given this information?

 

I know that there were only 77 users that responded to the survey but their input is more valuable to me as they took the time to respond to help this site out for everyone - I don't know who said what as that wasn't recorded however I stand behind those people.

 

Just like I stand 101% behind those that have volunteered their time to help out the site which helps everyone out and I will not stand seeing them being called "an elitist group" or favoured or anything else as I take the crap nearly every day running this resource for everyone so why should they - we all just simply do our best and for everyone and don't need to be ridiculed for it.

 

I have been here on the site for over 5 years now and I know who to listen to and who not to but a new member or student has no idea the differences between say Facthunter and John Smith. If I had just 10% of the knowledge and experience that Facthunter has then I would call myself very darn lucky - if Facthunter was a bit younger (sorry Nev) he would probably be flying an A380 Mon to Fri, a Mirage or F1-11 on Saturday and a Thruster on Sunday and he doesn't have a label under his name but he is the one I personally call for advice. So how does a new student or site member know the differences between say Facthunter and Turboplanner or me (even with the Admin title).

 

The Student Mentors have been carefully chosen after they put their hand up to help for the quality of their posts (and we are all just human afterall), for their knowledge and experience and especially with the way that they come across friendly and helpful in their posts.

 

Now, off the soap box and back to the question...What would you do if you were given this information?

 

I felt that we needed some people who can assist students and even the oldies in not only training but also refresher information. We also needed something where questions can be asked without threads being railroaded by many. We also needed a way to help students decipher the information that is given. We also needed a way where student's questions can be the specific topic so they get a specific answer. All this is what I derived from the survey results and maybe you now also see this from the results.

 

Above all we also needed to ensure that anything we do is not in conflict with a student's real life instructor hence why there is the statement in that forum and was made on the mail out:

 

However, this forum is not a substitute for your own real life instructor but rather provides you with assistance in the form of a discussion, so we do also encourage you to discuss your questions with your instructor as well.

 

Failing any further posts of constructive advice and suggestions I see a way forward on this is to have two forums - a general Students & Training Discussion forum plus the forum as it is now where a student can get special treatment.

 

Your thoughts!